The Honest Filmmaker
Are you about to leave Uni with a filmmaking degree? Or want to change careers and work in a creative industry? We want to give you the tools you need to enter the real world of production or freelancing. Honest and open career advice from people in the business.
We also talk to those in other creative industries to discuss their careers, the potential cross over with film production and practical tips for a successful and fulfilling career.
http://www.thehonestfilmmaker.co.uk
The Honest Filmmaker
Indie Film Marketing & Reaching your Audience with Chris Nials
#filmmakingpodcast #filmmaking #podcast
This week on the podcast I talk to the founder of the Independent Horror Society and filmmaker Chris Nials. Chris started the Independent Horror Society in London as a way for horror lovers to get together and watch Horror movies. It quickly transformed and became more of a hub for filmmakers and people who love horror to connect with the horror creators.
Chris is also a producer having worked on a bunch of short films and having recently released 'Walking Against the Rain' . I talked to Chris about the Independent Horror Society, we chatted about his feature film, it was funded through the SEIS scheme in the UK so it was good to quiz him about that and find out the pitfalls and his tips for those of you thinking of doing that yourself. We talked about the feature film, the sales and distribution process.
Chris says he has a good Sales Agent, which is something you don't often hear so it was great to quiz him about that. He's also a professional marketeer so it was great to get his tips on how to promote your film, Enjoy!
Watch "Walking Against the Rain" on Prime: https://www.amazon.com/Walking-Against-Rain-Sophia-Eleni/dp/B0B8MSLS1R
Watch Jim's movie 'The Apocalypse Box': https://amberpictures.co.uk/the-apocalypse-box/
Check out the re-release of Jim's first solo directing feature The Witches Hammer - out now on amazon
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/video/detail/B0F235F4T8/ref=atv_dp_share_cu_r
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HONEST, OPEN ADVICE ABOUT YOUR FILMMAKING CAREER
Are you about to leave Uni with a filmmaking degree? Or want to change careers and work in a creative industry? We want to give you the tools you need to enter the real world of production or freelancing. Honest and open career advice from people in the business.
We also talk to those in other creative industries to discuss their careers, the potential cross over with film production and practical tips for a successful and fulfilling career.
Join the community: http://www.thehonestfilmmaker.co.uk
[Music] hi Jim here and you're listening to the honest filmmaker podcast career advice from people in the business this week I'm speaking to founder of the independent horror society and filmmaker Chris Niles Chris started the independent horror Society in London as a way for horror lovers to get together and watch horror movies it quickly transformed and became more of a hub for filmmakers people who love horror to connect with the horror creators Chris is also a producer having worked on a bunch of short films and also having recently released walking against the rain I talked to Chris about the independent horror Society we chatted about his feature film it was funded through sis the scheme in the UK um so it was good to quiz him about that and find out some of the pitfalls and some of his tips if you're thinking of doing that yourself uh we also talked about the feature film the sales and distribution process he says he's got a good sales agent which is something you don't often hear so it's great to quiz him about that he's also a professional marketeer so it was great to get his tips on how to promote your film enjoy as I start with most people tell me about your route into the industry uh yeah so um funnily enough I I've never had any sort of formal training in film I never studied anything with relation to film or film studies at University I I basically found my way in um through starting the independent horror Society or the London horror society as it was at the time um I essentially started that um because none of my friends wanted to watch horror movies and I wanted to find more people to do that with so sound like good friends exactly that's right I've told them that many times um they still talk to me roughly um but uh yeah and from there I found far more people obviously that enjoyed horror um but the the interesting thing was is that I never really sort of knew that independent film was a thing until I started meeting more people through the society and um from there I mean my background's always been in marketing and you know meeting these people that put their time and their own money into making these really awesome horror projects that you know just kind of took my sort of breath way really in a in a kind of a weird way like wow you can make these cool things on your own you don't need millions of pounds doing it that's really really cool and I knew I wanted to kind of get involved in that but again having had no formal training I knew I couldn't hold a camera I couldn't be any good there I couldn't you know direct I certainly couldn't write so I thought maybe there's something I could maybe do in marketing and promotion and sort of really fell into it from there really um and then from there just sort of started learning a little bit more about how the production process works um in the independent sector and then fell into producing and um yeah here I am now probably five or six years down the line um and so I haven't really looked back really something I I really love doing and uh yeah it's been a hell of a ride a lot of fun though lovely lovely and all right so let's look back is what's the main thing that you would like to have told yourself when you started your producing career that is such a great question um it's the beauty of the benefit of hindsight you can actually answer this now um I think I think I've I've always suffered with sort of imposter syndrome I think and I I think there's always that Temptation when you're just starting out to think that there's no value I can really add somewhere you know I said I think with anything involving film you see people operating at the top of their very game right and you think well hang on a minute if someone's doing that how can I even as someone's just starting out even hope to emulate that but I think what I found over time is that actually no matter sort of what size particularly in the in the smaller scale of the budgets actually just having somebody with a particular skill set to come on board if you're if you're good at something I mean everybody's good at something thing right one particular thing and actually maybe that could provide value on a film set somewhere even if it's something like I mean me marketing I mean when the hell I would never have thought that would have been valued but actually you know further down the line on on a on a film Project it actually does so I think I would have just told myself hey look no matter what you've got it might actually be able to provide value to something and I think that's something we always look to sort of pass down um to people maybe just starting out in their career where it's like actually you know look maybe you don't have the sort of this like you said that kind of the deep skill set to maybe be a dop or something like that from the off I mean that's you know that's that's you know something that's probably not very achievable but actually look if you're just passionate be a safe Pair of Hands On set being a you know a runner or someone like that I mean it's uh when when you can't pay huge salaries to people on indie film sets you know people that are just Keen to get involved and lend a hand and be like I said a safe Pair of Hands and reliable are worth their weight in gold so I think it's you know just I wish I'd started earlier maybe I think is is one of those so it's like but again it would have always been that well what can I really add and actually the reality is well you can probably add a lot you just maybe don't know it at the time so yeah definitely and I will come on to the marke side because it is a huge part of producing and releasing a film especially with sort of self-distribution now so we definitely talk about that um so the independent horror Society started as we all love horror want to talk about horror films at what point did you go right this is now becoming more about making stuff yeah um it was it was quicker than I thought it certainly would have been like I said as I went into it not knowing much about that uh about that world so I would say it was probably in the sort of the first couple of years where we started showing other people's stuff as opposed to just organizing trips to the cinema or or you know watching other people's films that have come out of Studios have been those sort of big like releases that you'd go to the cinema to see anyway and um and yeah once we started screening them we started well so I started meeting more people that were actually making those films and like I said it's through it's through those relationships really that uh that I personally started making stuff with with other people and but the the society itself I mean we we've never actually made something as a society um it's something we're sort of maybe looking at doing further down the line we typically try and focus now I mean there there sort of really of three strands to what we do I mean our main aim is to really support the creation of indie horror projects no matter if they're film whether they're writing whether they're you know even kind of almost installation art stuff if there's anything to do with horror in it it's such an unders supported industry you know for any any sort of Independent Media is woful unders supported so that's what we're here for we're here to sort of Lord that and we do that really in three ways I mean the first is that uh we look to kind of unite people bring people together to collaborate on stuff that's that's certainly one of the things where we look at if we quote unquote make stuff it's bringing those people together within the society to to work together and to uh you know it goes back to a little bit what I was saying earlier it's kind of finding those people that think they might be able to add something and you know kind of almost mushing them together with other people that they can kind of maybe work with and see great things flourish that's one of the things that we do the second is we look to you know nurture careers as well with uh with people were very very lucky to have some really experienced Pros within um the society as well that are are so generous with their you know sharing of knowledge and sharing of experience and you know we can look to sort of harness that and help people kind of build from you know maybe a fledgeling camera operator to like I said a dop um that's very that's something we uh we really sort of focus on as well and and the last thing we do is I think probably the most important thing is merge fans with creators because for for us I mean again we'll probably talk about this in a little bit but it's so important I think for a for a Creator to speak to their fans right or or speak to fans of the genre because they're the people that are going to actually kind of it's such a horrible term but consume your product right I mean they they're going to be sort of buying buying what you create and I think having that kind of relationship and that Discord between fans and creators is is incredibly important and we're we're very much leaning into that um at the moment especially with uh with our new creators fund that we we launched I mean that's something that uh where we we give, grants to creators of of horror but it's all voted on by IHS members of which there are many many fans in there and you know it's just something we're looking to really uh push that kind of like I said that fan Creator Discord because it is it is so important so yeah where where we don't necessarily produce or create stuff as a as a society at large it's it's almost kind of even better than that for us because there's so much kind of going on that uh we' We've sort of helped introduce to that so yeah lots of uh lots of fun projects going on under our roof really yeah definitely and I would say so where I came across you was your speed uh pitching networking session which and I've never done one of those online before I'd done the baptism of fire of having to do it in person and I and I hate that anyway or I'm a bit better at it now but used to be terrible at it and hated it and I'd say if you're the sort of person who does find networking and all that kind of stuff difficult an online version is so much easier and it's so much feels so much more supportive because you're getting to talk about yourself for a little while and then you're getting comments in the chat of people going oh that's brilliant love that here's my email you know I was really impressed with how good all the pitches were and how sort of everyone was so supportive each other so I'd say definitely if you're if you want a little bit of practice even at pitching and and I tell you what talking of pitching then so what what for you what are your tips on pitching as a marketeer how how how' you do it um I think it's just be honest I think there there's always a Temptation with pitching that you must kind of project yourself as this all knowing perfect person in terms of what you're actually you know trying to pitch people to do and I think that kind of almost it's inherently un this is going to sound really wanky and pretentious but it's it's almost inherently kind of inhuman to do that because everybody knows you if you if you sort of inject personality in your pitch and just sort of show people what you're about what the you know what what project you're working on if you can kind of show passion behind that I think that's such an important thing and you don't need to be you know an A1 pitcher that you know does it day in day out to do that and I think um that's that's sort of one of the beauties of of like you mentioned with with speed pitching is that we try and create that free and easy environment where you know we're not looking for incredibly polished pictures we're just looking for you to tell us about your stuff you're working on because when you kind of get people just talking free and easy about what they're working on that's where you really learn about what maybe a project somebody's actually working on so I think yeah one one one massive piece of advice is just you know I'm not saying don't prepare I think it's always important to have your kind of the main beats of what you're wanting to talk about in a pitch lined out but you know make it sort of more interactive with with sort of necessarily who you're who you're actually sort of pitching to if it's one to one know maybe try and do it in a way where you invite some questions back and start that back and forth I think uh as soon as you can do that that's that's infinitely a better pitch um because you get the Buy in from the other party um but yeah if if you're sort of pitching to a room just yeah just be yourself and yeah it might sound a little bit Tred to say that but I I really think it's it's just so important that if people can kind of see the real you behind the projects I think um when it comes to If you're sort of pitching for to sort maybe find someone to work with or you know even if it's even if it's sort of financial you know you've got to have a connection with whoever's kind of taking you up on the offer of whatever you're pitching for you've got to have that connection and I think you know there there has to be that kind of personal relationship rather than just a professional relationship before any kind of you know kind of almost commercial transaction if you can call it that takes place so yeah just try and just try and remember that it doesn't have to be sort of perfectly Polished at the time you can always kind of have further conversations but if your first pitch just make sure that you're kind of being true to yourself really in what you're actually pitching and just uh just remember that so much of it is based on who you are and you're never going to appeal to to everybody but that's 100% fine and 100% normal so it's just important to like lean into to to yourself and make sure you're kind of conveying your your true personality really yeah definitely and I'd say the other thing is from uh getting the uh opportunity to watch other people pitch is really good because it it helps you oh okay that's how they do it that's how they do it and you realize hang on a minute none of these no one here is embarrassed this is just they're just talking about the thing that they love um my tips would be to try to get to the point as quickly as possible and also to have there's got to be a hook or there's got to be a moment in that pitch where someone goes goes ah so your story connects or it kind of some some it happens there was a couple the other night when someone says oh I had that moment I was like oh yeah I remember that moment and I'll remember that pitch because of it yeah um so it looks like uh on your own DB you've been through you know you've done a bunch of shorts done a feature film that's on Prime and you've done crowdfunding I can see from a couple projects so let's talk about that so what's what's your experience been like with crowdfunding uh crowdfunding is incredible hard um I think it's it's one of those when when it first first started I was you know I was almost going to say five years ago now but it obviously wasn't it was like 15 years ago when it first became a thing which is uh you know something I don't ever want to get into um but uh but yeah it's incredibly hard I'm I'm really lucky um so the uh my production partner guy called Scott lias we run a production company called Crossroad pictures he is incredible at at crowdfunding um but it's um it's it's a SLO it's really horrendous to to do if you're uh in any way sort of say thin skinned I mean it's uh it's one of those things where you just if it's going to succeed you have to be posting about it on social media every day um you have to be kind of bothering friends and family not necessarily for money but for likes and shares and that can I mean for me personally for sure it can really great on on people to do that and completely understand completely get it but you know in order to feed again I'm I'm spelling horrible phrases today and I apologize but in order to feed the algorithm on you know on the crowdfunding platforms you've got to have not necessarily pledges and and uh money coming in but you got to have eyes on your page you got to have people interacting with it so I think it's uh it's it's something we've kind of leared how to do over time and like I said I'm not professing to be an expert I'm very lucky to have someone who is working with me driving those campaigns but it's it's something that's never nice it's it's something that's uh incredibly hard work and it's it's all about trying to find you know every day you've essentially got to think of three new things to talk about your project because you know if you're posting say morning afternoon and evening it's three new things across platforms that you've got to You' got to talk about and and some people do it really nicely and you know they lean into the fact that they don't sort of really want to be doing it and they know they're being a massive pain to friends and family um so you know us see the techniques of like if you give me if we get up to you know x amount of pledges by the end of the day we won't be talking about this project for another couple of years and it's all it's all about kind of finding your own angle and uh I I wouldn't say finding your comfort zone because I think you just have to kind of you just have to push on through and you know leave your comfort zone really to do it I mean but the whole it it's the whole crowdfunding landscape has changed so much in terms of you it used to be about um trying to kind of create a project that strangers would find on whatever platform you were you were funding through to try and actually kind of get strangers who are just casually looking through these these platforms to find stuff to back and it it really sort of doesn't really work like that anymore I mean it's all about trying to kind of find people within your network or people who might know you through other people to do it I mean we've when we were sort of funding five six years ago for projects we were able to find rers who found us and was like oh hey this sounds really really great we'll put some money into that but with the last project we crowdfunding for a from called Sandersville helper um we managed to do we did we did pretty well in terms of getting ourselves seen on the platform I think we were uh we were a Kickstarter pick um which was which is always a great thing to have I think we were the number one rated film project in the country on the platform and we were number three in the world I think at one point so in terms of feeding that algorithm getting to the kind of the SC where where people are actually seeing your project that you don't know I think we had two pledges come in from from people we didn't know so it's uh it's it's such a tricky thing to do but I think if you do it sensibly and if you do it carefully and you and you really create a proper strategy for what you're doing it can work I mean there are some people especially in in horror you know there is that kind of core audience that will put money in because they just love horror you know and it's such a brilliant audience to try and uh to try and harness and again it almost goes back to pitching right I think if you can do it in a way where you get people to buy into your project and you I think that's probably the most important thing because if you think about it there are hundreds if not thousands of of horror projects that are on there so what is it you can do to try and stand yourself up against the rest and there is if you can inject personality if you can put you know within marketing these days it's so important to put a human face to stuff and that's absolutely the case with with film making as well which is why we put our filmmakers front and center of of the campaigns around it because it really does help people buy into you know what you're doing you know you're not putting money into a project you're putting your money behind somebody and I think that's kind of an infinitely more powerful strategy to do it and that sort of has seen us right really um for the for the last few we've managed to do right okay good advice good advice and have you have all your projects gone crowdfunding or have you done any other kind of Finance no um so uh the the shorts mainly yes um with the feature uh we did a pre-production round um for for through crowdfunding which uh which we managed to achieve and that certainly helped us on the way but uh but yeah that was um that was sort of a slightly bigger budget feature than we were we were uh we were used to so we did that through some um the usual kind of the tax routs that you try and do to try and make it as efficient for investors to invest in so uh we uh we were lucky enough to be approved for the seis scheme um I won't bore you with the the details of the tax implications around that but essentially it makes it far more attractive for a for a high net worth person to invest in your company rather than a film which uh which kind of carries some weight so yeah it was a the to to raise the money for that was a combination of seis related funding some Pro yeah pre-production crowdfunding and personal investment and Loans um so it was it was uh by hook or by crook we were going to make that film um and I think it was uh we just decided it's like look we've got to make this because if we don't it's not going to happen so we're gonna have to just put this together we weren't helped um by the fact that we had originally we had um uh one sort of investor that was making quite a sizable donation um preco uh and then covid happened and that all fell through so we had to sort of completely kind of redo the production from a much lower budget perspective and uh and and go again which obviously makes made things um a lot harder but I think again I mean it was uh a combination of sort of Blood Sweat and Tears just to sort of get us through that and to get us you know it was almost it was almost staged it was like okay so if we get this amount of money we can get the get the equipment sorted or get the location sorted and if we get to that point we can go and shoot we can pay everybody and then it was almost stage so it was we kind of got through production and we were like Okay cool so we're there we haven't got any money for post what do we do so then it was we could we could yeah we could could raise some more money um through investment and then obviously we had the the tax credit at the time you could then go and uh go and apply for so that essentially pay through post so as always with you know any indie film producer that's that's working on features it's a case of it's never that plain sailing of okay so our budgets well I don't know £100,000 and let's get that £100,000 and a away we go it's it's never like that it's you know you're pulling in things from multiple angles and just trying to kind of get it through to a stage where it's like okay right it's done and then then come selling but I mean that's a that's a another story entirely yeah another nightmare yeah exactly so so just to uh one more thing on that that seis funding is there any uh pitfalls of that or any any things you wish had known going into that process um that's a a good question actually I mean I think um it's one of those things where I would almost advise you don't do it alone um I think I mean we were we were very luy that we had a very good accountant on side that could help us through that process because it's not just the the kind of the the benefits of doing it are quite simple I mean essentially you're applying to the government with a with a business plan that then they approve and if they approve you you're able to raise money from from high net worth people um so the the process there is quite simple but it's just knowing essentially how to fill out the forms knowing or having some input into what the government might be looking for in a in a business plan as well I mean it's uh it was probably the best few hundred pound we spent on on getting a getting an accountant to sort of help us with that and and it goes the same I mean essentially because you're kind of dealing with tax um and other people's income tax I mean you you're obviously not touching any people's returns or anything like that but it has to be done absolutely by the book um and uh I I think when it when it comes to that I mean I think there's some stages or there's some parts of film making where you absolutely have to leave it to a a proper professional um and that side of it any anything to do with money and government related money and government related schemes it's like for God's sake make sure you pay someone who knows what they're doing because it's it's just one of those things if you get it wrong I mean you can you can try it will either hold you back or it will kind of get you thrown out of the scheme or or anything like that and it's just just you know there's a there's a reason why people spend their lives being count is for stuff like that so for me it's like yeah let them get on with it it's well money well spent good advice good Sound Advice get an accountant if you're going to go down that road get an accountant getting a lawyer that's that's always get account yeah that's the other one all the contracts um so then uh obviously you've uh you've got the film now that's on I think it's on Prime the film that you youve made um so talk to me about the uh a distribution process for that and what Avenue you went down yeah so um it was it was one of those where uh because it had been a long long process of the the script was written probably maybe two and a half maybe three years before I mean that's when we were first sort of thinking about it um and uh had sort of gone through sort of numerous co-producers trying to get things up and running and as always with these things they run and run and run and that's why we essentially sort of came to that point where it was like you know we got so so close with with a bigger chunk of investment pre-co and then that fell through and it was really at that point where we Scott and I both have sat down we like well it's now or never we've just got to get this done and I think in in hindsight I think and my advice would always be just sort of seeing how the the industry works is that you've got to kind of create that sales strategy you've got to be talking to Distributors from script development stage because if you can kind of get someone to to work with you from either from a sales agency or or a distributor at that point it makes your journey incredibly more I say incredibly easy much easier let's say just because you know you've got that kind of you know if you can kind of get pre-sales committed or if you can kind of sell it off spec just to kind of get that that back end sorted I mean you know at least you're going to have a sort of a sellable product at the end of it but because of obviously how we um because of our journey with with walking against the rain didn't allow us to do that we were kind of almost shooting in the duck where it's like hey we've got this film made now let's try and and sell it and um we uh we got a we got a sales agent locked in um reasonably soon afterwards and I think you know as as always with these things I mean you get kind of horror stories about sales agents all around and I think it's just I mean we we didn't have that experience I mean ours ours were quite good but um it's it's just a very sort of slow process where you know you know as a lowbudget filmm within a Sal any sales agency there's always going to be sort of a hierarchy stuff so it's as as a producer it's your baby you're like looking for stuff to be done left right and Center very quickly and it's just not how it works sometimes so we had to learn to be kind of patient we had to you know we were we were very good at um sort of standing our ground when deals were coming in if they weren't right for us you know we we we said and I think sometimes it can be kind of easy to fall into something that might not be right for you um but you can always fight your corner and I think there's this uh this image of sales agent sometimes where they're like well if you fight your corner they're just going to come of shell View and that's it and that's not the case I mean I think uh you know if you if you find the right one to work with you know they understand they know the situation and they'll work with you to make sure that the release is right for you too which is which is great you know it's it's it should be a kind of a a collaborative relationship with with any kind of um person on the distribution end to make sure that your film receives the right release for the film um and and yeah we uh we we got the uh the US um they the US and Canada are the the quote unquote domestic IC rights um out straight reasonably quickly um that was released in the US I think it's proba about 18 months ago now I think really um and then uh it took a little bit longer to kind of get uh get the other territories sorted out which obviously included the UK um but we finally signed um the rest of the deals for the remaining territories yeah I think it was maybe just maybe three months ago really so it's uh it was on um all the peod platforms for a little while and then yeah it's found its home on uh on Amazon Prime now and uh yeah looking forward to seeing the first uh the first sales report come in for it but uh let's see let's see how it's done but it's always great to see it come out in your home territory man I mean that was that was the that's always the the most important thing you know we we've had been so lucky to have so much support from like the UK indie horror Community for our film and that's what that's what makes it special is when it comes in and people can actually watch it because aside from obiously Festival releases you know not every fan can come to festivals and watch your film so for some people you know they've been backing the project for you know three four five years sometimes and it finally it's like now you can watch it which is you know nerve-wracking in its own right it's like God I hope you're not disappointed but I mean a long it is it is a long wait so yeah it's nice to kind of have it out there now and uh yeah just uh see what happens now see what happens now so uh do you mind saying who your sales agent is because people will always go oh he knows an honest sales agent that's amazing yeah um so we uh the company is called Taylor and Dodge and they were based out of La um so it was um it was it was I'm not going to say it was a tricky relationship at all because the only the only sort of downside was to the agent that uh that signed us for that then went on and um joined another agency and so we remained on their books so there was always a transition period but uh but no they were uh they were they were good I mean communication um is always such an important thing there and I think all you want from sales agent is honest conversation and you know rather than you know oh hey you know we're going to try and do this we're going to do that and you know those over promising um sides I mean there was uh there was less of that than I think what we've seen sometimes with others I mean being our first commercial feature we were kind of you know relying on you know much like what I'm sure people listen to this you know they go to the usual sources and try and learn about what what to sort of do from from sales agencies and or or what to try and get them to do and it's one of those things where until you in that situation and until you're um talking to them you know again it's it's like any relationship within this industry you can find those ones that work for you you know they're they're not bad guys every you know you've got to understand that they're in it to make money so you've got to kind of you know with any kind of backend point of of the film making process you've got to I think a lot of people you know sometimes go into it thinking oh you know this is my film it's my baby and I just want it to be right you got to realize that it's a money-making machine right then you're you're going to be kind of a cog in that machine and I think um if uh as soon as you kind of get that into it it makes it makes many conversations a lot lot easier um and I think uh yeah it's just just you know find the one that's right for you I mean I think if you we were very lucky to have had a a reasonable Festival release um for it which we did quite well at um at frightfest and some other you know big festivals around the world so we had that kind of platform where sales agents were actually you know willing to talk to us which is uh which is sometimes quite a tricky thing to do so you we spoke to a few and uh and we picked T andd and um and yeah they they've done well for us cool and last question on this and I can absolutely cut this bit if you don't want to say it so last question on this would be have you seen any money from them yet or are you still paying off Marketing in sales fees so um we negotiated as part of our deal basically like a corridor so we had um we had a small mg um which was which was really really great um from the district computer um and yep we we saw that so we managed to negotiate in and it's again this is always worth kind of asking for these things where you know you can't be naive where you sort of think okay well you know zero marketing costs please let's kind of get all our money in first it's never going to work because again they need to make money as well right I mean and again it's that realization but we did manage to negotiate a small Corridor in there where it was like Hey look we need to see some comeback can we sort of do it almost Parry pasu where for the first few th pound just to come in so we can have something can we take that alongside paying your marketing budget and then we'll do that again so that's actually what we got in the end um which is uh like I said something that can be negotiated I mean again some sales agents might go for it some won't um and it's you know some some producers like to kind of get all the marketing out the way first you know just so they can kind of get that cleared and then everything's you know for them after that so it's all about kind of if figuring out what you want from it from a from a producer standpoint and then finding the right agent and finding the right deal to to to sort of try and push that through but yeah not every strategy is right for for those for for everyone so again it's important to find the right person for you that you know you can have these conversations right at the very start before you sign with anyone and then you know it it can you know that open and honest discourse from from both ends is is is so important yeah definitely and I would say maybe it's even worth asking that question just to see how they react 100% yeah then you know who you're dealing with and if it's a sort of genuine business relationship or if it's whoa hang on a minute money up front you you know exactly from that well that's it and I think again you know sales agents do have a bad reputation and that's because there are some bad apples in that but there are there are across the entire industry right I mean there's no place is safe you know there are bad producers in there as well and you know it's we all get tarnished with that brush sometimes but you know like I I said they're there to make money and I think if you know if you're trying to kind of almost meet them on their terms where it's like look you can't kind of almost expect them to kind of shoulder all the risk on a on a release you know that's unless unless you've got like an incredible project where you know it smashed all kind of you know audiences loved it and it's it's a big hit you know then you can kind of start to be a little more kind of choosy and you can kind of get people bidding against each other and that's obviously where you win there but you know if it's a let's say let's say a regular release um yeah you you have to maybe sort of um you need you need to know that you need to you know maybe play the game or or um or yeah really kind of find that sort of relationship where it's where both grounds are met but you know you have to realize like I said that they need something on their end but there's always again it's that's why I'm so it's so important to find the right person to work with because it it can make a difference and I think um you know even just having that right relationship can can help you get the deals that are right for you and I think if you know that the person there is fighting your corner with the Distributors to get those right deals for you it just it does make the relationship so much easier I'll put um a link to walking against the rain in the great thank you description so people can check the movie out I'm sure they'd be interested to see it um so then marketing you got your marketing hat on um very difficult phase for filmmakers because you've got to go out there and you've got to get people to watch your movie so give me some tips for that what's your advice I it start as early as you possibly can so I think at the top I probably bleed about the importance of bringing fans and creators together and and that's really where it starts for me I think um you know it's not the situation where you should be kind of clearing your ideas with with everyone first to kind of get a 100% approval from every fan you speak to to go and make a project but I think it's important to when you're sort of developing even when you're in the sort of the script development stage you've got to kind of have an eye on on the audience because they're the person they're the people that are going to be buying your your product and look again it sounds kind of uh a bit almost kind of businesslike right but what you're producing is a product I mean you're you're kind of asking for sometimes hundreds thousands if not millions of pounds worth of investment from people if people are putting that money in it's your kind of your fiscal responsibility almost to make sure that you're using that money wisely or or kind of creating something where you think there's a good chance of of making them their money back and maybe a bit more that's the that's the aim right and I think in order to do that whatever business you're in the first thing you need to do when launching a new product is know your market and I think that's that's sometimes something that's overlooked where people can kind of get incredibly excited by a script that's written um and it can be an incredible script but if it's if it's something that's kind of harder to Market particularly in the horror genre it can be something that you know can kind of lead you down a bit of a a kind of a risky path where you can make something you might be able to get some money for it get it made but then it's you know nobody wants to buy it and I think yeah that's why it's important to kind of go with that mindset from that development stage now with with things like horror I mean it's it's kind of the perfect breeding ground to do that because you you know from the start that you've got an incredibly receptive audience of fans that don't really kind of care who you are or who's in your film if it's horror they're going to kind of want to watch it which is such an amazing kind of um base to be playing with but then you kind of got to be sensible with with what you're looking at I mean if you kind of got an idea for a vampire film or something like that look there's got to be something new in there right because everyone's seen a vampire film 100 thousand times you've got to look at um you got to look at your kind of a script from like a beat perspective where look if you're doing something kind of schlocky and gory that's fantastic there'll be an audience where people la up but if you don't get into that until page 45 of a 90 page script then are you're going to lose your audience in that first time so you've got to know where I mean that's that's kind of I think an important role from a producer like myself that doesn't write to kind of and and I hate it I mean it sounds I always sound like such an [ __ ] because it's like I can't write to save my life yet someone will submit a script and like well that's you know you kind of need to do that it's like who hell am I to tell these people how to you know do bril do better writing when I can't do it myself but I think it's important from a from a producer standpoint to kind of know how to maybe you know suggest that people should amend their scripts to kind of include those top beats because you know if you are pitching your script to somebody you know an investor that has invested in films before or if you're having kind of very early level distribution talks to maybe lock in pre-sales that's going to be what they're looking for because they're going to need to you know the the Distributors will probably have a good insight into what Their audience want um so you've got to kind of hit those beats and I think again you know how many times have I've spoken about this already there's got to be that kind of that discourse level with with anyone that's kind of having an input as to putting in money where you know yes you can be that kind of guy was like no this is the script this is it if you don't want to put money in so you I'll go and find it somewhere else but in reality there's got to be that kind of give and take and I think you know sometimes you do maybe have to bend to put something in your script to kind of appeal them and it's you know I don't want to say that the writing process is really kind of collaborative because that's probably not fair to writers because they're having to do the hard hard yards of making it work it's just you know there's input from other people that like me that have the audacity to say yeah that's that but can we do something else I don't know what that is but you figure it out you're the writer um but it's uh that's incredibly important and I think that's why if you if you if you're kind of working on a project like that it's it's incredibly risky to actually kind of do what we did with walking against the the rain and if if we were going to do it again but I think we would do it differently where you're spending hundreds and thousands of pounds on getting a product out there with perhaps no discernable Market at the end and it's just it's just you know it's almost too risky um so yeah I think having that kind of marketing headon knowing your audience from the very very beginning and knowing where it's probably going to land and you know it's not something you can do you know to a to an absolute tea and expect it to kind of run how it does I mean some some people do I mean Studios like bloomhouse people like that are incredibly good at that they know what they're making at the beginning you can see exactly what they're trying to kind to do and who they're trying to appeal to and that's absolutely great but you know on our level where we can't do thousands and thousands of dollars worth of market research or stuff like that where we're trying to kind of really kind of zero in on that we have to make our best guess and you know what that's that's absolutely fine it's it's absolutely better than nothing um and and it kind of it's it goes with things like I mean the most important piece of marketing you can do for for an indie film is is look at your Festival strategy right I mean that's where that's where people will see your film for the first time and I think it's important that when you are kind of either even even if at the budgeting stage of the film where it's like okay so we know we're going to what festivals we really think this is going to absolutely play and go down the stor at let's make sure that we're talking to them at the start you do May going to these festivals to try and get a relationship with the with the programmers that's all incredibly important stuff because again you can make the best film in the world but if there's no kind of buzz being built about it if there's no one hoping to see it or if there's no kind of Buy in from an audience you know no one's going to see it and that sucks and I I dread to think how many incredible films have been made but because there hasn't been that kind of thought process about how you're going to bring it to Market never see the light of day just because no one knows about them and that's yeah it's really really sad so yeah I think um if there was kind of a a sort of almost like a sound bite to it is just start marketing or thinking about how it's going to be brought from day one even before you know when your treatment's there and you've got a cool idea then you kind of think about how it might roll out yeah absolutely and also those discussions where you go we need to put some in the first 15 minutes to keep people exactly you can have that discussion now or you can read it in the reviews when people say the first 40 minut is boring and I turned it off yeah so it's that it's that as a well as a director my wife gives me the feedback as my producer on the script we have those discussions it's taking me a long time to get to the point where I hear them from the place that they come from rather than as a you know a creative who's uh offended that my Art's getting changed well that's it and you only had to divorce her three times you know to get there in the end we've had yeah so many discussions about that and I and it is it does take a while to get to that point where you you can hear stuff it does hear criticism yeah it does but then I think you know film making is is such a collaborative process right I mean you can't kind of you can't do it alone and I think when you kind of when you when you've kind of gone through it a few times I think again I can't profess to say this but I would like to think that a a good writer would realize that you know there has to be that kind of that level of you know buying from your your money men and your producers and it you know if you're not directing it yourself your director as well and and it's never a slight on your writing you know I think you know again as a as a producer you wouldn't even be talking to that writing necessary if you didn't think they were a good writer and you didn't think it was a good project it's just that kind of back and forth to try and kind of take what we think the writer might be trying to to to develop and actually then not again it's not even put the kind of the final gloss on it to make it sellable it's just to kind of make sure that we're doing all we can to kind of create the best package and the best product at the end of the day I hope you enjoyed that episode if you'd like to hear from more industry professionals how they got into the business and how you can do the same or you just want to listen to some cool stories from movie sets around the world then please do subscribe to the honest filmmaker podcast[Music]
