How to be a successful television director with Andrew Gunn

#doctorwho #mattsmith #filmpodcast 

This week on the podcast I'm talking to prime time television director Andrew Gunn. Andrew's worked on a ton of big shows in the UK like Doctor Who with Matt Smith, Life on Mars and Hollyoaks.

This is a great one if you're interested in becoming a TV director, finding out how you get work, how to work with your agent and how to work with actors. Andrew tells me how he started his career, his advice for you to do the same and some stories from some of the sets he's worked on. Enjoy! 

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Transcript

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[Music] hi Jim here and you're listening to the honest filmmaker podcast career advice from people in the business this week I'm speaking to TV director Andrew gun Andrew's worked on a ton of big Prime Time television shows here in the UK including uh Doctor Who with Matt Smith Life on Mars and Holio so this is a great one if you're interested in becoming a TV director Andrew tells me about how he got into the industry he gives me some advice for newcomers he also talks about work with actors and working on those big Productions as well as the logistics of finding work working with his agent and putting projects together to get them off the ground enjoy so I'll start where I do with most people which is how did you first get into the industry right how did I first get into the industry how far back do you want to go so so you presumably I think you remember you saying you did go to UNI to study is that right yes yes so um so you know I was very young when decided I wanted to become a director I kind of discovered it by accident but I was obsessed with movies and Cinema and stuff and then I discovered I actually wanted to be a stunt man or an actor or something like that you know nice and then I discovered this role called director who sort of made films and worked with cameras and the actors and the crew and um didn't quite know what it was I thought those that's the person that kind of makes the film and puts it on the screen so um I was just sort of captivated by that so I started looking into it I was about 10 or 11 um and then I discovered there was such a thing as a film school and you could go and train to be a director I thought well I'll do that yeah I'll have some of that um cuz my mom and dad are sort of working class jordis you know there's nobody in my family that that's um is in the industry anywhere near it so it's like well how do I how do I do that you know so I I was probably quite naive I just thought well I'll just do my best at school went to a pretty rough school and then uh applied to film school and I eventually got into a an okay film school and um did a degree and that's how I kind of got started yeah right and then what was your first uh directing gig when you started a professional or um so give me the um so I'm I'm assuming you made some short films made some of your own stuff first yes uh yeah so what was your first one where you actually paid to do it first one I was paid to do it was actually was um one of my short films called insomnia which I made I think 1998 is it yeah roundabout then 9798 with Andy Circus starring before he was uh famous nice and um produc produced by Lisa Marie Russo and funded by the BFI and the northern production fund and a big budget actually and I was actually paid to a small amount of money to to and I'd written the script for that write write and direct that you know so um I guess that was my first paid directing job but it was a you know 15 minute short film fully funded short film sure and then at what point did you make that move into sort of TV directing how did that come about well after many years of hustling and and persistence which um you kind of have to do really unless you're very very lucky and get picked up or noticed by somebody but uh when I was starting out it was um it was a bit of a Clos shop actually so it was just make make as many films as I could which wasn't easy because you know it was way before we had mobile phones and dslrs and and the technology that we have these days you know I mean you had to you know hire cameras and buy film stock and it was expensive wasn't easy to do so um I just hustled and hustled and hustled uh a lot of rejection and then I approached Victoria pile who is the writer creator and producer of smack the pony don't know if you remember remember that show yeah yeah remember that kind of sketch show I just love that show um and I got in touch with Victoria and went to see her she said well I'm not doing anymore smack the ponies but I am doing this new thing called greenwing and I thought okay and um anyway she offered me a directing role and I was actually a newcomer I had really I hadn't done anything professionally really and um so I went to direct the pilot episode one pilot for greenwing which um then the show was commissioned and by that time i' sort of moved on and started my if you like drama directing at Holly Oaks um then it was Mery television Phil Redmond's company and um I spent about 12 months there directing a lot of Holly Oaks a long time ago back in the early 2000s quite a different show these days um and that's where I just got my foot in the door and some grounding and um then I that was it I was sort of off you know and off and Away off and away and what's that like uh that first day on something that's I guess maybe the Hol Oaks thing where it's like a proper big production it's a big moving Beast what's that like when you first step onto the set first day well I can't really remember but it was I mean it was it's pretty full on I mean it was then and it it definitely is now it's pretty crazy a lot crazier than that these days cuz I've been back since and I've actually produced the show as well so I've seen the new directors that work in this you know crazy machine scheduling and um yeah you've got to work very very quickly and got to get a lot done so it's it's not an easy place to start U but I had a lot of fun the thing is I'd been on drama sets for many years because after graduating from Film School um because I had a you know um a lot of experience in photography and cinematography from when I was a teenager uh I had a camera background so I ended up in the camera department so I started as you know earning a living as a a clapa loader and focus puller as they were known then but they're now called first assistant camera and second assistant camera but I still like the term loader and focus puller so I had I'd been on big dramas you know kathern cookson spender tager you know these 80s 90s dramas in the camera Department working with top directors producers actors so I just it was like home to me so walking on the set and directing was absolutely you know it was just I'm at home really yeah no problem at all yeah you'd seen other people do that properly and watched them and kind of learned from their example of how it's done which enabled you to walk onto the set and kind of feel comfortable doing that yeah so was it was um it wasn't it wasn't daunting at all for me the the amount of work you had to get through in a day is always a little bit nerve-racking but in terms of just getting on with it I mean I I think I already had a lot of knowledge and experience because i' I'd learned from some of the best directors and I've been right at the sharp end on set watching you know and that's often asking the director do you mind if I stay on set while you're rehearsing you know and they were go no no problem and I just learned it all I just saw it it was just it was the best film school yeah it was much better than the threeyear degree I did yes yes being in that practical environment I imagine you soaked up so much stuff um looking back on that now and you the start of your career what advice would you have given yourself back then what would you say to your younger self at the start of my career so after I left film school yeah oh wow um Network more shmoo and network more yeah um and try and make more stuff try and write and direct more stuff but in in in in the years that I was starting you know this is just before HD and even and the very very sort of first generation camera so it wasn't easy to make films you know if you wanted to make a 15minute film and it was fairly ambitious you know it you needed money you needed a budget so it it wasn't easy these days you know so I'd say to new filmmakers now it's like yeah you you can make a film on your phone make stuff make as much as you can practice your craft I wasn't able to practice my craft as much as I'd like so I wish I'd had the technology back then because I would have made a lot of films and you know my career might have moved quicker you know different direction I don't know but uh uh yeah and also the the thing I I've never been very good at the I don't think many many directors are actually creative people you know that often quite introverted you know um in a extrovert kind of way I'm an extrovert on set but outside of the the work I'm you know quite quiet and easy going and all that but the shooing and the networking is really important because it's true it's not what you know who you know you know but you should know stuff you should be good at what you do as well you can't just get a break just because you know somebody and believe in that kind of nepotism myself but so um it's all very well being talented or good at what you do but if you don't have the connections it's it can take a while to get to where you want to get to yeah absolutely so to Echo those two points I'd say you might have shot more back in the day if you had phones but then there is a I think uh where like you said if you have to make a film and it costs money you have to be a lot more focused on exactly what you want to get out of it so maybe your craft is more honed because your every shot counts especially when you're shooting on film whereas these days you can oh leave the camera running you know it doesn't matter does it it doesn't cost anything yeah it's on my phone so it's that balance isn't it of just shooting loads of stuff but also trying to focus in on exactly what you want to get out of that uh shot out of that setup so that you're not just taking the technology for granted yes it was a lot more disciplined then and I think that that's been lost to some degree because you do hear with the camera just Runing and I don't do that you know I cut and I go again because there's the the whole uh discipline around you know rolling the camera and putting the board on it just focuses everybody's attention and so I believe in the the the old school film way of actually because it it has an effect on if you like the atmosphere on set and the the work ethic and the etiquette and everything which is very important you know so and you're right you know when you're when every frame is costing you you have to have to be very disciplined and very focused you know and I think that that's one of the downsides of the technology is it's it can be quite wasteful yeah absolutely it's like oh we'll sort it out in post or we'll fix it like it's like no let's do it on camera let's do do it properly you know so you don't have to sort it out later let's get it sorted out now while we're on set you know yeah and um just the other thing you mentioned the shmooz in and the networking I know a lot of students find that difficult and a lot like you say a lot of creative people because at heart we can be introverted even though obviously we're doing this thing this sort of entertainment thing have you got any advice or tips on that on how you handle networking and shooing oh well that's a tricky one it's a good question um because it's with you the whole time I mean I'm quite deep into my career probably getting into the the Autumn of my career oh dear and it's gone very very quickly it doesn't last very long um and I'm still trying to figure that out because the the industry has always been in my experience from when I started you know um the default mode is to reject and ignore people because there's so many people I guess and there's a lot more now coming out of film schools and is is um you know I mean I get contacted quite a lot you know via LinkedIn and various social media you new directors and fans of shows I've um directed and stuff like that um and I do give them my time but a lot a lot of a lot of people don't you know and I find a lot of um say producers and executive producers you know very difficult to because they're either too busy or they just you know overburdened with people trying to get meetings with them but you just got to keep on going you know I used to do a thing I used to call the the Soho Shuffle which is when I lived in the Southeast I would you know plan a day I'd be on the phone and and sending reels out and I would just pest the people I'd spend whole days just calling and emailing and try and set up meetings and then I'd go up to London and I would have a whole day of from going one meeting to the next 99.9% of those meetings didn't lead to anything but you've got to do it because you've got to meet people and you got to you know uh because that that 1% half a percent might lead to a break or you know so you've got to do it you've just got to get out there and pest the people and keep pestering them until until you really get the impression they just saying Go away you know yeah yeah agreed but I I literally will pester somebody until they tell me to f off okay that's good advice you might get a lot of emails after this um right so then so then looking at your career and some of the these huge sort of Mega Prime Time things you've done some it like um Life on Mars kind of beloved show uh just looking back on it because I think I watched it after it had air so it kind of built up a bit of cult status and it got so by the time so you did the second series by the time you were working on it was it as was it huge or did that happen after it had all finished and if it was huge was that daunting to work on something that had kind of been so successful um I think it was huge um during the Airing of season one of that okay right right I certainly got that impression I mean I I remember being very intrigued when I heard about it and then I started watching it and um and and I just fell in love with it I I just thought it was the best thing I'd ever seen for very very long time you know uh I think I watched I think I watched all all the episodes about three or four times you know and then I rewatch them again when I eventually go on meeting to go and talk about um series two so it already I think by the time it had aired back in was it 2005 or something like that it already had a kind of bit of a cult status you know it was sort of it was inherently inherently cult like you know just the genre the era that it was set the music just made it a cult drama it was just uh it was was fantastic you know and I just remember watching it go I haven't seen anything like this ever and this is the best thing I've seen for many years you know and I just I just wanted to go and work on it I didn't think I ever would but I did so there we go what's that like working on something that big and do you with all the stuff you do so like all the Doctor Who Hol Oaks all that kind of thing Are there many discussions around style I imagine does that happen when you have your initial meeting because I I'm guessing they don't want you to come in and just completely change everything and take it in a New Direction they obviously want to use your talent but they want to keep that kind of style that it's got at the beginning yes I mean I again I would I I do remember this I I wasn't I was more excited about working on the show than it wasn't daunting at all to go and work with that cast on a Big Show in fact for me at the time and and even now the more ambitious and bigger tonally and stylistically and you know big Crews and big cameras and Big scenes and set pieces don't phase me at all and working with you know famous actors doesn't just doesn't phase me I love it and it's exciting you know it's like a big train set isn't it you know so and in terms of the look I mean there's a there's a look and style the show tonally you know yes you have to take that on board and they're going to be looking for d directors that can bring something new but within the within the the style and the tone the vision of of the show you know so clearly you know I'd watched the hell out of it I knew everything about it and uh there was something I remember the producer Cameron roach I did ask him why we we were shooting actually I said why did you hire me because I hadn't really done a great deal and I hadn't really done much at all I I was surprised to even get a meeting but I did everything I could to get a meeting that's where the I really shooed and network the hell out of that one yeah but it got me in the room and I was said well I'm just getting a meeting on this and I thought that was it and then it led to a second meeting before I knew it was on the show um and that was a then everything changed for me that that that was sort of it you know but um you know you you go and you adopt the the look and feel you know and which wasn't difficult to do you know um and you just add your own flourishes to it you add your own little bits and pieces and style to it you know within certain certain parameters you know yeah and so say I'm um say I want to be a TV director I've lucky I've been lucky enough to get a meeting with a big show that's already on like a doctor who or something apart from doing tons of research on that show what else would you advise what advice would you have for someone going into that meeting well try and get a script to read Because often they'll you know you'll be calling for a meeting and you'll you'll know the you might know the show for example Doctor Who although when I did it it was a um they were totally Reinventing it you know it was a new doctor new style new look all that kind of thing which is exciting uh but try and get a try and get a script to read preferably one the script that you maybe may end up directing MH because then you've got something to talk about but often there isn't a script so it's it's just get as familiar as you can with the show if it's an existing show just watch as many episodes as you can you know research the cast and the characters that they play so you can at least talk about those you know because you will get quizzed I'm not trying to catch you out but it helps to know the show as as much as possible you know so just do your research like you would for any interview do your research watch the show um you know cram those character names and actors into your head um and maybe look at H ODS and the crew see if you know anybody that's worked on the show um and look at their their work you know so you're you're familiar with the you know entire crew and cast and everything like that and of course the producers that and Executives that you're going to go and meet you know and maybe have some questions you know there might be some questions that you want to ask not like how much are you going to pay me and stuff like that you know but there might be something are you going to do anything different with this season if it's an existing show and you know just a couple of questions because they may ask you at the end if you got any questions I mean I often don't I say no you know uh but I think if you're coming in fairly new you want to maybe have a couple of questions up your sleeve you know but don't involve contracts and money no don't talk about not yet that's not your first question how how much am I getting for this um so talking about Doctor Who uh what was it like working on that and again is that even more I don't want to use the word restricted but obviously shows like that have got lots of effects in them they've got people in Prosthetics people in uh full skin suits how um I'm going to use the word restrictive but how restrictive is what you can do and how how much you can play around with the actors and the shot set up well the the the scripts are very developed on on a show like that or at least they were when when I did it I did a particularly good one called Victory of the darx by Mark gatus um who's a superb writer I mean they always have superb writers on that show you know um but it is a big machine it's a machine and it's it's been around a long time that show and although they reinvent it you know um it's very ambitious so uh but again I you know personally I never find that thing I find it exciting and a challenge I don't find it daunting at all you know um I just love it you know I just love the idea of um challenging big how how can we do this because although it has a generous budget you're still up against time and and money and achieving all these visual effects can be very challenging you know but I think on on my block of Doctor Who we had to cut a lot of the visual effects because there was far too much in terms of time but also budget so as a director you're involved in a lot of meetings um to find solutions to problems you know so how can we tell the story and make it you know retain a certain amount of spectacle on a on a stretched budget you know so again it's just you know looking at the script and and having lots of conversations with people MH and actually saying why don't we cut this why don't we cut that or what if we did this in this way which would be quicker and easier and cheaper and things like that you know um does that answer your question yeah yeah I think so um I guess that brings me on to uh actors so so again if you're working maybe you're working on your first student film uh it can be quite daunting working with professional actors um and people often fall into certain traps of a way to talk to actors thinking they're going to get the most out of them what's what are your tips for working with actors oh wow that's a whole that's a whole no I want I want a sound bite I want one a single word that's a whole whole 3day course there yes it is um which I'm actually planning so um um the secret is the casting yeah so cast well learn how to cast because it it isn't what most new directors and student directors and you like amateur filmmakers think it is it's probably the opposite um casting auditioning and casting actors um learn how to do that you can learn from me if you want to but uh it took me a while to sort of figure it out and then I had to sort of you know refine things and learn a bit more myself because one thing I hadn't done properly or much of uh as a student or when I was in the camera department is I'd never been involved in the casting I've never seen that was an invisible thing that happened before I turned up so um I love casting proper casting proper auditions in the room instead of self tapes get the self tapes then do proper auditions so casting is really important because then if you get that right you'll have to your directing will be minimal you know I've always been uh loved the process of casting and and discovered I was actually quite good at it I and I go on my gut instincts and then I learned more about the casting and auditioning process then I was able to refine that but I um very rarely do I get it get it wrong unless a cast member is cast for me yeah which is often the case in TV drama you'll turn up and the entire cast is already there there's not much you can do about that so if you have control try and cast your own episodes your own films and then you won't have to direct them much because um for me directing is not directing you're not telling the actors what to do you're guiding them through the story and make and helping them find the emotions within themselves and you're letting them do their job so never never overd irect but never underdir of course it depends on who you're working with and every actor is different and every approach to a specific actor is different from the other actor every member of your cast you'll have to direct in a different way yeah absolutely and it that casting process is going to save you a lot of B Lake as well personalities wise and also it's a creative process isn't it it's not I'm looking for man this tall who can do this and who good at acting you're looking for that sort of chemistry of how all those people are going to interact together and I'm always surprised at how things happen in casting that I didn't expect to happen with characters they kind of change don't they they they and they become more interesting because you cast somebody who is interesting um so what about uh create creative differences have you ever had to deal with that or or dealing with difficult people have you had to do that and what would be your advice for for dealing with those situations that's a good question yeah good question I've been very fortunate I haven't had um much of that happening and it's and it's never really been about you know a clash of my personality against somebody else's you know because I don't work like that and and I've been fortunate it's usually about something else outside of my relationship with the actor you know it might have be a um you know a gripe that they have with production or the schedule or whatever you know something else it's always about something else even if it seems to be about on set working with the director it's normally something else that's going on in their life with the ax so you know um I've had some unpleasant experiences with some producers right um but and they're difficult to to handle or even understand but when you're working very closely with people for very for long hours for weeks on end you know in sometimes under difficult circumstances you know um some people can get rubbed up the up the wrong wrong way you know so I don't get into I don't really get into that um I've been very fortunate that it hasn't it hasn't really happened much and with with actors you know I'll try and steal them in the direction I want them to go if they don't want to go there then you know after asking three times I just stop I just go okay because there's no point really MH but again if you get your casting right if you got control over it you'll then work you have more collaborators around you rather than people who are going to oppose what you're doing but certainly it it's hasn't happened it hasn't a few on set things which script problems or you know um actors that have been up all night partying and tired and irritable but nothing major nothing major you just get on with a job you got to grow a very thick skin and just get on with the job you know yeah yeah and try and keep it light and enjoyable for everybody yeah and it is I imagine yeah that producer direct relationship I imagine that can be very tense because you might be at odds with what you want to get out of that project or what you're putting into that project if youve got time constraints and money constraints um what about uh the other thing I was thinking about is for people who are new to the industry what the logistics of getting work for you so you've got an agent does all your work come from your agent or does this shmoozing networking oh I know Andrew he'll do this he'll do a great job on this what's the sort of percentage like for you of where the work comes from it kind of changed is I think depending on where you are in your career you're never going to stop networking and shmoozing and contacting people and I spend a lot of time doing that because you know my agent is dealing with different other clients and you know so they can represent you to a degree but if you're not representing yourself not much is going to happen agents don't really get you um opportunities they might be able to get you in the room for a meeting that's what they do they can represent you get you in the room but then it's up to you once you're in the room it's up to you um so you have to do I still do probably 90% of of the work to try and get meetings I mean I just do all I can most meetings that I go to I've set up myself these days at the moment anyway so yeah don't just sit back if you do have an agent getting an agent is very very difficult so I will say you know real world is it's not easy to get an agent um but if you've got something exciting to show in terms of your work and you've got an exciting story to tell about how that work came about how that film came about then you've got a good chance of um getting in the room to meet an agent and then you know they'll help you sort of with your career but never stop never stop hustling and networking and you know you shouldn't be sitting around twiddling your thumbs if you're not making a film or writing a script or whatever you're doing it should be on the phone and emailing people trying to get to see them and you know develop sounds exhausting it is I'm still doing it and I've been doing it for 30 years now or so you know and in fact when we finished chatting I'll be I'll be you'll be on the phone yeah so then so that's interesting in the it sounds like that's actually quite a large percentage of your that's kind of part of your job as a director is not just directing it's kind of that finding the jobs finding the places that you want to the shows you want to work on trying to get to the right person in the right meeting so you can sort of explain to them why you're the the best person for that job yes that's that's it you know yeah so at the moment I'm I've just started developing a six-part drama with um rope ladder fiction I can't say much about it mhm um the execu is Cameron roach who produced life of Mars many years ago and so we come back together which is great because he's a superb producer and executive producer um one of the best around in to work with um very supportive um so I pitched an idea to him he loves it so we've started the development process but the meeting catching up with him tracking him down meeting with him pitching the idea um negotiating you know what it what it is creatively and in terms of the contract was mainly done me and him yeah and then eventually we brought in lawyers and my agent who just did the paperwork yeah but I had to do all that and it's taken 12 months yeah to get to that stage so and it wouldn't have happened if I hadn't done that work my agent isn't in a position to do that wouldn't have done that um he's doing other things on my behalf but things get made when when you develop relationships so developing relationships I already had a relationship with Cameron from Life of Mars i' followed his career so that's why developing relationships are so important CU in 10 years you never know you're going to cross paths again and something might happen I hope you enjoyed this week's episode if you want more advice from industry professionals who are out there at the moment working or you just want to listen to some cool stories from film sets from around the world then please do subscribe[Music]