What is Virtual Production? with Phil Griffiths from Framesync

#virtualproduction   #volume #ledscreens 

This week I'm talking to Phil Griffith, the Educational lead at Framesync. Framesync is a virtual production company who help storytellers by offering a full service consultancy, from creative planning to on site delivery. They have a developmental arm creating tools for the industry and a series of courses helping to up-skill creative practitioners in all things virtual production.

This is a great one to find out more about Virtual Production, I ask Phil about all of the ins and outs of the technology, we talked about whether this technology is accessible for micro and low budget filmmakers , the impact it is having on the film industry , the challenges of using virtual production  and the opportunities it presents as well as whats coming up in the future. We also talked about Phil's career, he was previously a music teacher and now works in this brand new industry.

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Transcript

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[Music] hi Jim here and you're listening to the honest filmmaker podcast career advice from people in the business this week I spoke to Phil Griffith the educational lead at Fram sync Fram sync is a virtual production company who helps storytellers by offering a full service consultancy from creative planning to on-site delivery they have a development arm creating tools for the industry and a series of courses helping to upskill creative practitioners in all things virtual production this is a great one if you're interested in Virtual production it's something you don't know a lot about I really Grill pH on all the ins and outs of it uh we also talked about whether this technology could be used by micro budget lowbudget filmmakers the impact it's having on the industry um I asked him for the challenges of using this technology and the opportunities it presents and we also talked about his own personal career uh he was previously a music teacher and now he's working in this brand new industry enjoy so first of all for those who don't know tell me what virtual production is virtual production is really a kind of umbrella term for lots of different Technologies and lots of different techniques so the way I like to think about it is it kind of breaks down into like a couple of different areas so you might want to think about visualization to begin with that might be like previs postv Tech Vis you might want to think about motion capture or performance capture um you might want to think about like a hybrid approach which where you might have a green screen and tracked cameras and then finally what lot some people think of when they talk about virtual production is this kind of big LED wall and like Mandalorian style um approach which is is really what you call in camera visual effects or IC VFX that's how I like to sort of describe virtual production to people um it's not just one thing it's lots of different techniques lots of different Technologies right okay but you I guarantee the thumbnail for this is going to have a big picture of an LED screen on it because like you say immediately think of and it is kind of I guess am I right in saying that is the sort of latest bit of Kit within these things you're talking about that's the the most newest part of it yeah I think it's the part that um well lots of Technologies so suddenly in the last five to 10 years have got good enough to be able to um to make a real difference to film so the quality of LED has increased the quality of 3D tracking has increased the quality of uh render engines and computer power has increased and therefore you can do things that you couldn't do 10 to 15 years ago but really all of these um sort of areas of virtual production have been around for a while and then it's this culmination in the last few years and then um a couple of sort of big players in the industry putting some money into it and it being seen on screen in a way that we haven't seen before um so yeah that's why lots of people are now talking about it yeah and do you think it's is it changing film making or is it just a tool in a box that people use or is it sort of changing everything yeah I really try to think of it as a tool it's a storytelling tool and if it helps you um with your production because you want to shoot in a specific location that you can't get to and you you either can't fly your crew there or you just can't access it and instead you can shoot that on a volume fantastic if it helps you because you want to do a car scene and you don't want to have to block off roads and and sort of deal with all the health and safety and those side of things and you want lovely reflection on your vehicles whether that's a car or a train or a plane perfect it's wonderful I I think sometimes people are going down the route of I'm going to design a story around in camera visual effects around this led wall um but really I think stories telling should come first and you should have a great story and then work out what technology do you need to support the telling of that story um yeah that's that's the way I like to think about it yeah I absolutely agree out of Interest has a film been entirely shot on one of those yet to yeah I I I can't think of one that I could sort of stand here and say oh it's entirely entirely on an LED volume um there are shows such as 1899 where a significant part of the um the the story and the and the film making is based around uh sets within that led volume but that doesn't mean that everything has been shot there so um yeah not not yet as far as I'm aware happy to be corrected though yeah it's a challenge it's a challenge maybe someone will accept it um so obviously I've got my micro budget lowbudget hat on is this accessible to people with less money to make their film or not this kind of Technology yeah I I think it's I think it's becoming more accessible I think you have to think carefully about what you're trying to achieve and again I think the big barrier is that people see a huge LED volume and and there's obviously an Associated cost with that huge LED volume but the reality of us working in the industry is that you don't always have to have a huge LED volume to get what you want you know there are shoots where um particular sort of lowbudget shoots where you're trying to get two TVs to do the same um overall effect as that huge LED volume might do and sometimes that can be really successful you know I think in terms of low budget I did a one of the very first sort of virtual production shoots I did um I took Unreal Engine and I'd made an environment in Unreal Engine along with one of my colleagues um and we then had a a green screen background but we tracked the camera position and then we composited sort of this 3D environment onto our footage uh in post production now really that's still virtual production because we're still tracking a camera using a real time environment um we've got uh sort of real um physical sets and actors and everything in that and then we've composited it in post production so that workflow cost less than a, pounds and we got a really great music video out of it um I think it just depends where your expectations are if you've got a if you want to film um you know a car commercial and you need an LED volume that wraps all the way around your car there is an Associated cost with that if you're really clever with how you line up shots Maybe use um uh you know maybe use a smaller amount of LED maybe use a TV maybe you do some rear projection or some front projection and and all of those other technologies that um still fall underneath that virtual production bracket and are still I I think really accessible I think especially um lowbudget film making thinking about projectors and and how you can sensibly use a projector is probably a great place to start yeah but I don't want a projector I want that big LED screen that's what I want I mean that's fine in which case you can you can have that big LED screen and you can you can think carefully about how you want to use that and then you can work out whether there's a budget for that sure so so then just thinking about it because it's this new thing and I know I'm focusing just on the LED screen but it feels like it's the thing that people have most most questions about say I book this I've got a bit of budget I book it for a day what what am I paying for do I have to have special people there to work it can a regular dop turn up is he going to know instantly how to get his head around it their data Wranglers are there what are the sort of costs associated and Personnel I need to make it work yeah sure so um Studios often are providing all of the crew in order to make that system work and I think what's really important is to understand that people like your dop are still an integral absolutely important part of this overall process and what you're getting when you go to that volume is is probably the volume itself the technology to run the volume and hopefully some people to run that volume as well unless you say you don't need them but but most of the time they're coming as part of this package and the thing that's most important and I and sort of I try and do and we at Fram sync try and encourage people to do is to think about pre-production and the planning in the pre-production stage and working with whoever on your volume to make sure that the content that you put onto that wall looks as good as it can do do you for example need a 3D environment or could you get away with um two-dimensional plate footage maybe you're just trying to do a car scene and therefore you don't actually need to build a 3D environment in Unreal Engine or Unity or or various other programs you actually just need some two-dimensional footage playing back to give the effect of um uh of the car moving and depending on which sh you're going to you might find that it's actually cheaper to run two-dimensional footage than it is to build a fully 3D environment so it's trying to work with the sort of virtual production team to figure out what's the best way forward for your particular story um yeah that's that's a good way of thinking about it yeah um and just thinking about that because I I saw watched when I knew I was going to chat to you I watched a few clips as you do and I watched some stuff from the Batman and like you say there was some shots of him on a motorbike where the background was just blurred stuff because he's on his motorbike which looked really cool um so you kind of I guess you can get away with some stuff but looking at the Unreal Engine everyone talks about it so so we know do you have to pay for Unreal Engine where do you learn to use it can I watch a bunch of YouTubes and figure it out or do I need to go on a course yeah sure no great question so um at the moment Unreal Engine is uh still free to download my understanding is that there there is going to be a licensing for which I don't have personally all of the details as I don't work for epic games but they are visible online I think it's to do with whether you're as a studio you're hitting about a million pounds for your project but please check that out don't uh don't hold me to that um but the one thing I would say is that you can go onto the epic games website um download the epic games launcher and then you can install Unreal Engine from there at the moment moment um as of where are we April 2024 we're on most of us are working in version 5.3 5.4 previewers just come out um yes there are loads of tutorials on YouTube um there are various courses from lots of different providers you can go and figure it out um and and I I've personally just really enjoyed exploring that as an Avenue for creativity um and yeah now I get to use it in my day job as well so um yeah yeah and is there any you would liken it to is there any other um programs a filmmaker might use you'd liken it to um so I guess if you've ever done any 3D you might have used blender before because that's also free and so I think there's really good comparisons between blender and Unreal Engine and if you've done game design you might have done that in unity or Unreal Engine so there's a comparison there I think there are comparisons so when you start getting into the um sort of uh camera positioning and lining up camera shots that's still timeline based in a part of Unreal Engine called sequencer so that would that's similar to working in d Vinci resolve or Final Cut um and so I think unreal pulls lots of different threads from different programs I guess um but it's uh yeah it I I think it's okay for getting started I think it's a good place to get started you don't need to learn how to code um if you don't want to although that is an option if you choose to go down that route um and I think even just getting some preis prev visualization um practice in and blocking out different scenes that is a that's a great place to start and am I right in saying you do have to pay for assets so if you're paying for or is that all free as well so if I want a certain type of tree have I got to pay for that or how's that work so the way I would look at it is you can pay for assets but you don't have to there is a huge um epic games Market place in which people have uploaded things that you can purchase um one thing just to say about that is every month there's a free selection of of um assets that epic games give out but the the real I would say one of the best parts of Unreal Engine is the uh quickel bridge and the the quickel assets the meas scans asset library because there's 15,000 or something different assets that you can get for free um you can download them in in a variety of different resolutions and just bring them straight into your game and that's I would say I've done that 98% of the time for building uh building levels I think I've probably bought two asset packs maybe three in total you you don't have to pay money to get started here I would say just get get started download it and have a go have a go okay so then that brings me on to the next thing I would worry about as a filmmaker uh copyright legal stuff so if I'm I guess I would do I would get a somebody in who's an expert on on real engine they'd create my backgrounds I'd have the same sort of contract I'd have with any special effects person I'm assuming because that's their work on screen um so with those assets do I need to worry about that do you think is that something I've got to keep track of what assets they're using are the people who created those assets going to come after me if I've used them in a feature film and am I allowed to use them in a feature film yeah so my understanding with the mega scans asset and please do read the TCS before taking this to taking this to print everyone but um uh my understanding is it fits under the epic games license around whether you're paying after you've got a successful uh product that's my understanding um I've never needed to really explore that Avenue I um I would say that lots of the time when you're working you're likely to work with what's called a vad which is a virtual art department just in the same way that you might you would work with a normal VFX house and you would have the an agreement with them that says the assets that they're making are for use on your film and possibly only on your film depending on what agreement you make so I think that's that's not something to worry about that's just a question to ask and and a teas and cease to check if you're um you know yes that that's what I would suggest teas and CES um and then looking what's what's the future what's in store like further down the line for this do you think where's it going yeah I I think um we're always working towards photo realism how real can you make that led wall look there's a an awful lot of research and exploration into the color pipeline at the moment and how does an LED wall um reproduce color and how accurate is that in comparison to sunlight at different times of the day um we've got sort of in the process of being launched at the moment a number of new uh LED processors and led panels which should um effectively more ACC Ely reproduce light and I think that will be really interesting for dops um and and anyone who's and and colorists and uh dits and anyone who's got a particular focus on the color accuracy of an LED wall and how to manipulate that color to get the the best out of the LED wall I I think that's particularly interesting I think there's some um there'll be some interesting steps around generative Ai and how that can produce either environments or two what would be called 2 and a half D um which is kind of where you have a series of of static images that are stacked in a three-dimensional world and that that will be interesting I I think um another possible offshoot is the uh development of machine learning techniques for rotoscoping and maybe that will get to the stage where you're using an LED wall but you're really using it to capture light and light from the scene and then possibly you rotoscope your actor anyway um that's that happens at the moment there's um yeah there's a whole host of really interesting things sort of happening um especially you know even if you just take uh graphics cards and and how great a Now consumer graphics card is in order to produce these environments you're saying earlier about sort of low budget and and entering this world if you're particularly interested in um sort of computer generated uh imagery and and animation that you can now get a graphics card for cheaper than oh sorry the graphics card you can get to can do more than it's ever done before and and just rendering a a CG video from from something like unreal can be quite an incredible storytelling device so yeah lots of areas lots of things lots of areas exciting times but then uh flip side what are the sort of challenges and the downsides yeah I think the downsides are that we're or maybe the challenge is that we're combining lots of technology and we're pushing that every single day to tell creative stories I must say though I don't think that's any different from any other time in history you know if you track back over um the history of ilm for example and and there's a fantastic documentary about that history every time they make a movie they're trying to push things forward and that's really near the same as what we're trying to do in Virtual production where I you know if you look at the behind the scenes for The Flash and Aquaman in the way that they had um an insta 360 camera recording above one actor and so that's capturing all of the uh it's capturing footage on either side of the camera and then they're replaying that footage to get light emission onto uh an actor's face so they're accurately they can accurately map that face effectively that's an incredible technology but it's at the Forefront and because no one had done that as far as I'm aware no one had tried that technique before the Flash and and it was um you know it's challenging whenever you're trying to do something that you're having to um alter software in order to do the thing that you want it to do it's it's going to be hard and I think the the best thing that people can do is to try and up upskill themselves in a sort of broad sense what's happening in this wide world of virtual production and you don't have to go super deep into all of these areas but find someone who is a specialist in that particular area and and be a and go and talk to them but by having a broad level of knowledge you can at least have um an articulate conversation around what you need as a Storyteller um yeah I I think there will always be challenges in that sense yeah and I would I would say that's a good piece of advice for anyone producing or direct directing is to have a broad range of knowledge of all of the roles on set but this specifically if you're using this if you can if you can have that conversation it's going to make your life so much easier if you're going to use it um yeah one other thing uh I've seen one I've looked at it I haven't touched it does it get hot do I is what is there any safety issues around itum uses a lot of juice yeah okay yeah so I mean it will get it will get warm um and I guess in terms of safety issues just things to be aware of is is how it's being hung are you ground stacking it from the floor up or are you hanging it from a truss um but but there are some there are a huge number of very competent people at building LED um and and it's yeah there are some great teams out there who can help you and I guess the other thing just to jump back to your previous Point around how much does it cost and and where do you go and what do you need is is is remembering that you you don't have to go to a studio that has one of these led volumes pre-built if you have a specific scenario then you can reach out to people who provide that led and they they can build that in the dimensions that you need it and therefore if you've got a specific use case and you don't want 25 meters by five meters from a particular Studio you can adapt and and and led man providers Distributors suppliers sorry will be able to help you with that with that Journey so yeah I don't think there's I mean health and safety you don't want to kick it um you you know there kick it got it right yeah kick it yeah I was I was somewhere the other day and I um someone had clearly walked along and and hit the LED with something rather sharp so I ended up and so they they basically took some pixels off of one of the panels and ended up swapping it out and yeah the the the accid I would say accidents happen but equally you're you're dealing with a um you know an expensive piece of equipment but I would say every everyone on film I've ever been on they're well versed in not touching other people's equipment and and just making sure you're respectful of who's around you and what they're doing so um yeah so the other thing I was going to say was presumably companies that have got these led uh volume set up aren't being used all the time so maybe there's some space there for a micro lowbudget filmmaker to say hey it's not being used this we weekend can we come in and get a bit of money off uh yeah I would absolutely agree with that as an opportunity and I would certainly say that if you have an LED volume in your area either by with a professional studio a university a test site you know any of these things and you're interested just get in contact and say look I'm really interested in how we can use this is there a way we can work together and and as a as a Storyteller be inventive you know is it that that they can let you use the volume but they get publicity from um from when you publicize the film can how how benefi in kind is there anything that you can do to help them at the same time if they're trying to build the studio is there a reduced rate they could give it to you for you know how does that all that work I think the the one thing I'm finding at the moment is the studios don't uh they don't always have set rates specifically you know it depends how long do you want the studio for how many are you shooting 2D 3D is it a particularly quiet period is it a busy you know all of these things all of these variables um can be can be quite flexible and and I would say it's much better to go and start that conversation and maybe you find that that there is no space at the moment and it just doesn't work out and that happens but I would say you know just back to that green screen story um of my first virtual production shoot we um I I had multiple teams sort of working together and the studio very very kindly gave us the studio for free because they wanted to see how the technology was used and what could be done with it and whether it was something that they wanted to use in the future so it kind of became a a win-win because my team were trying to test the technology and test it creatively they wanted to do the same thing the band wanted something that didn't cost very much money could we find a way of of working ah there's a gap in the diary let's go for two days great you know I I think this whole industry is about relationships and about people and I think as long as you're as long as you're aware of what you're asking and I I say what the cost of that is I don't necessarily mean financially but um in any sense what the cost of that ask is and and is it the right time to ask is it day one you've turned up there you've looked at the LED and you've gone can I have this on Saturday yes probably you know maybe not the best way forward this is a valuable asset for that studio and it takes a high level of skill to use it to its the best of its ability um are you in the right place as a filmmaker to take advantage of that you know I spoke to a director not too long ago and and they came to see me and said I I've got sort of on the um the thread of what you were saying about has anyone shot everything in a volume and they said I want to shoot this short film I'm going to shoot everything in a volume and I said well actually there's a couple of things here that you'd probably just be better to find a location for in terms of the budget that you're working at um and there's you don't have to do everything on a LED stage if you if you don't want to if there's not a need for it you know think carefully about that use case yes good advice um and I'm sure you get asked this a lot well not the specific version of this question but how long is it going to be before I can go to Costco and buy one and bring it home and do it home myself what and buy an LED screen yeah how before it's like I'm looking at the sort of 599 uh price range only as big as this room how how long have I got to wait how many years do you think who knows who knows but I would say at your current budget level yeah I would just go buy a very very big non-reflective TV and uh and and and that would probably get you further than further than you would think I'm not even sure I'd get a very good Telly for that money at the moment i' probably maybe not how am I gonna get you an LED wolf for that that it's a trick question it's a trick question there's no way um so then the other thing I was interested to ask you about was cuz when I met you um you talked about having a different career before you got into this game and it was I guess my interest was wow because this is a new technology are there new careers opening up into it so it was really just a bit about your own journey into this yeah yeah sure so um so I was a teacher for about 10 years um I was a taught music in music tech and then was head of uh music technology U sorry head of Music at a few different schools and work my way up into working in a sixth form and and then decided that I I just really wanted to change really wanted to move into um really film TV video media production somewhere around that so I worked for a video production company for about 18 months and then about yeah about 18 months ago from now just decided that I really wanted to push into the film TV and Live Events using all of this um sort of virtual production technology for one of a better phrase and yeah did a lot of learning did took took as many sort of courses that I could I do a lot of reading um did a lot of experimenting with um you know with all as much of the technology as I could get access to whether that's disguise or pixera or Unreal Engine or blender or um just really to try and grasp um grasp that broad brush stroke and I think the the benefit for someone like me coming into the industry at this point is that I bring I bring other skills so I bring people skills and management skills and production skills and now I have a technical aspect within this world of virtual production as well and that combination is is um is has really helped me um because it means I can I can talk to lots of different stakeholders and pull their creative ideas into a virtual production space but I can also work with bringing my team together to make sure we get that delivered and and that has helped me a great deal I think in terms of are there new roles yeah I I think there are new roles um in terms of how the sort of game engine approach of something like Unreal Engine has combined with the film and TV approach of of of being on set so things like being an Unreal Engine operator on set wasn't really a thing 10 years ago as far as I'm aware you know I can't track back for the first time and real hit a scene but or hit a set that's a new position something like a virtual production supervisor as it is it's kind of being called at the moment is is really again a newish position um I think that there's a um maybe a slight misunderstanding about the skill level required to do some of those things um it's not it it's not as simple as um day one in film and TV day two virtual production supervisor um there there's a lot of learning that takes place and and there's a real balance between the complexity of the technology and the system and making it all work and ease of use and Frames think we're doing a lot to try and make that ease of use um a focus both for universities and for um DPS and directors on set and and trying to enable filmmakers to do what they do best but there is still an awful lot of technology that goes on under the hood and that's why having having Specialists there to um to to bring the best out of you as a filmmaker is is a really good idea so um yeah that's a little bit about me and how I've kind of got into this and um yeah is there a is there a website or an online resource you would suggest people use to kind of keep up to date with this stuff what do you subscribe to anything in particular I think if you're trying to figure out words there's something called VP glossery um which is a great uh it's a glossery of words within virtual production um there's a group called starting pixel which is a group of professionals who are um all really working in Virtual production there's a framework which isn't specifically about virtual production but is about wider immersive Technologies um there's it's it's always helpful to to sort of keep in touch with with people like disguise or pixera um epic games um companies like frame sync or Lux maer and and and people who are working in this space um just to sort of see what's going on there's there's so much happening if you were to then list companies like um like row or Brompton who do make LEDs and led processors and there's there's lots changing and I think it can be quite overwhelming to begin with um and so it's worth thinking about once you've got a broad brushstroke of understanding which elements go into virtual production which bid are you most interested in are you most interested in the 3D um creation World creation are you most interested in the media server that might run it are you mosted Ed in the tracking system the camera tracking system um you which which bit are you sort of most interested in or maybe you're interested in the production side of looking after a virtual production shoot all of those aspects um are worthy Explorations I would say um yeah um so uh what in your opinion is the best use of virtual production in a TV show or film sure I I I watched behind the scenes for 1899 not too long ago and so series on Netflix and they had a huge curved LED with a ship inside it and and I won't ruin it for people that want to go and watch the series but I just think personally I think they made a great choice in um the production design and how they' blend the production with the LED wall it just I didn't work on it or know any that worked on it but from what I've seen they really well planned out how they were going to do that shoot why they should use an LED wall and what they should put on that led wall and and that's that's just really great to see um it's because then you you watch the series and you're just immersed in it you're not thinking oh there's an LED wall there you it it just looks like it should do if they were on a ship in the middle of the ocean um yeah I think that the overall culmin of what they managed to pull together was really great yeah and if if it's the one I'm thinking of which I also watched I thought was awesome and it was the sort of art Direction was beautiful as well and it all kind of married up the only spoiler is is they've canceled it haven't they they're not making series which always happens with anything good um damn it so um if my next question is if you could remake any film using virtual production what would it be oh if I could remake any film I I think the thing I'd be tempted to sort of remake would be um kind of any movie in the 60s where there's a car and there's a rear projection and it's kind of not matched at all to what's happening in the scene but um I'm also sort of quite nostalgically fond of those things and looking back at some of the James Bond movies and thinking ah you know what it doesn't look realistic but Sean Conor's there and and I'm in the story I'm in the moment and I still believe it and and that's what we're always really aiming for so um yeah there we go that's what I do that's what I do I hope you enjoyed this week's episode if you want more advice from industry professionals who are out there at the moment working or you just want to listen to some cool stories from film sets from around the world then please do subscribe[Music]