How to be an Ethical Filmmaker with Benn Wiebe

#ethics #mentalhealth  #filmpodcast 

Today I’m talking to filmmaker, campaigner and ethical filmmaker Benn Wiebe. 

Benn has produced entertainment news for the US and China but now works on social impact driven projects, he wants to make a difference, from being embedded with humanitarian rangers in Iraq, to producing a SXSW winning and Oscar shortlisted documentaries. 

I chatted to Benn about how he wants to help to make the industry healthier, tips for dealing with mental health issues while working in a creative industry and how to make and promote social impact documentaries.   Enjoy! 

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Transcript

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[Music] hi Jim here and you're listening to the honest filmmaker podcast career advice from people in the business this week I spoke to filmmaker Ben vber Ben has produced entertainment news for the US and China but now works on social impact driven projects He wants to make a difference from being embedded with humanitarian Rangers in Iraq to producing South by South West winning and Oscar shortlisted documentaries I talked to Ben about how he wants to make the industry healthier for everybody what it's like being on set if you've got mental health issues and also how to make and promote social impact documentaries enjoy so I'm pitching myself as the honest filmmaker but looking at your bio it feels like you're the ethical filmmaker because of all the stuff you're involved in and we'll come to those sure later on but just to start with how did you get into the industry did you go to UNI what was your sort career path in I did go to UNI yeah I actually was at the University of Oregon for a while uh and was studying psychology and journalism but I always knew I wanted to work in film and uh you know how that that happens when you you don't you don't necessarily have a lot of people around you encouraging you you know into the industry or or know people that work in the industry and so I didn't um and so finally I realized that about halfway through college I was just kind of directionless right and I finally made the decision to to switch to film school so then I I went to the Art Institute um and uh yeah and then and mo most the instructors there were people who had you know really worked on shows and and had been in the industry and so I had several of them encouraging me you know if I got an opportunity to work on a movie or a TV show you know take it take take that chance and and run with it you really you really have to and I did I got got an opportunity about two years into Film School uh to just intern on a movie called follow the prophit with Diane vanora and um and Tom Nunan and folks like that in the cast and so yeah so so I I took it and from there you know you to start meeting people and and they see you working hard and just being eager to learn right and then I got invited to work on a film from there and and then off the second one got invited to work on a third film and that third film was a Jennifer Aniston movie and that's when I started to really you know catch a good wave and and then you start feeling like I'm a professional now I feel like I'm I'm in the business I'm I'm in this yeah yeah so but yeah I mean that's how it started and uh what if you could go back in time now and say something to Younger You Who first started that Journey what would you say to that person or what advice would you give them uh I would definitely give advice around just being a curious person and and and going into it with the spirit of being a good Steward for other people especially in production I worked in in the production department so that specific department is really about how do we help everybody else how do we how do we make sure everyone has what they need that the uh that the the teams are you know hired appropriately right like staffed to to what we need and and just making sure we can keep things on time and on schedule so I I think coming from that perspective too um I think if you can come at it from this this Spirit of of stewardship that you you're there to take care of others and to make sure that this freight train uh uh you know that is making movies uh you know is able to get through it because I've never been on a project where people weren't burnt out by the end right and and and ready for a break because it is like a fre train when you hit production and and there's no stopping it right so that really does require having good folks around who are making sure looking out for people's wellbeing and mental health and and and just making sure we can can focus and have good morale I that's not something that I was really aware of in the beginning and I'm a huge advocate now uh for that um yeah yeah well we I will come to that sort of section of the work you did um and I completely agree that those any sort of creative Endeavor is always stressful so there's obviously a lot of things impacting you in those environments um just to uh continue on that Journey you've been on in your career what was day one like on that the big Jennifer Aniston thing what is that you sort of keeping under control the fact that wow this like you say it's a huge production and I'm just part of it or how did you deal with that yeah so it it was like A10 million uh you know romcom type film uh and I I would say this from the beginning everyone was prepared by the producers that for when Jennifer Anderson showed up for everyone to just you know not talk to her right everyone just be uh uh super professional which doesn't necessarily set up an environment for people to be relaxed trusted to do their job right it's oh we should be paranoid that the star of the project you know is is going to be someone who we have to walk on egg shows around right and and so that environment was definitely set up when it didn't need to be right when she came in because I had never been around you know kind of aist level folks and and but Al so all you know is is what you've heard and what you hear is oh there will be a big team of people around them you know we need to make sure everything's everything's smooth there's no balls Dr when she came in she didn't have a team with her right it was a super not and the project itself you know was actually very smooth and naturally for a comedy there was there was actually a lot of you know laughter and decent Morale on the set uh which can go with the content um so it is fun working on comedies but but I would say that the expectations set by the the people in leadership was completely the opposite of what happened and if they had just actually instilled trust in all of us even people like me who are still fairly new you know at being on sets uh I think it you know would have been even better right because otherwise you end up with people who are just kind of paranoid and then they think they can't you know uh uh you can't just be yourself you can't just relax and work hard at the same time and um so yeah I mean that that was my that was my first you know thing I really noticed was people just setting up an environment that didn't need to be as strict and and and as kind of you know hardcore disciplined when no when no balls had been dropped yeah right up to that point um so yeah that was definitely my my biggest takeaway but that was a really good that was still one of my favorite things I worked on because it was pretty smooth uh and because of the content because of of of the comedy narrative uh it did create a nice Vibe onet where where there was you know more laughter and people actually had fun reading the script as we would continue to update it right um and all that so yeah yeah yeah good that's a good advice and also I guess if you're starting your own production if you're a a student even if you're doing your graduation piece you've got remember that whatever level of stress you're at if that kind of Cascades down to everybody on on the set that Vibe so if you get that wrong at the beginning like you say you can um you can put everybody on on edge and not enjoy the experience as much exactly yeah it just sets the tone of of permission from the beginning yeah um so I've seen on your uh credit list you've got impact producer comes up a lot so could you explain what an impact producer is and does yeah absolutely so impact producing is uh it's how do we take a film you know or a show and figure out how it can influence and impact social movement right so and and that that project does not have to be say ideologically activist on its face right it doesn't have to be a David atenor documentary for example right it it could be you know fiction piece or something that could easily be said you know to be light-hearted entertainment but I think I think in any story there is a it has a place to influence something that's relevant in in the public discourse right and I mean that's what stories are all about it's something we can relate to and resonate and and talk about and so with impaact producing a lot of it is geared towards you know how do we use them as tools education tools political tools right how do we get films and shows in front of people who write policy or push advocacy on certain issues you know um I mean there is a a movie recently the called the territory that ended up being very influential on um like EU Parliament discussions on deforestation right or Mark Ruffo did a film called Dark Waters which was a fiction film but it was a you know based on true story of a real situation and that movie uh was also very useful in policy discussions around uh what they call Forever chemicals um that end up in like bodies of water so you know so those are examples and impact producing is still at a fairly young uh age I think where it's becoming more supported right more projects are starting to hire people to do this and it's so it's now at a stage where we're really trying to quantify what success looks like right does it mean we're able to help the movie make more money or extend its shelf life for for popularity right and and be relevant in the public disc or does it mean that it's actually having a direct influence on some kind of social movement right and then that's all being explored as and do you do uh when you take on a role like that are you on it from the very start or is it something you do most of your work uh in postproduction and when you're kind of releasing the film so the the battle right now is to get it included from the beginning M right just like any any other leads would be um a lot of it has been relegated towards the back end right when you're talking about drro and and where's it going to go and how long is is it going to be trending you know wherever it is right and and even within that I mean I've done impact producing for some Netflix original titles for example and and even then it was hard to push them it after a certain amount of time had passed that the film had been out it was hard to push them to say hey could we could we also you know take the film here and and and get some of the the main key participants from the film to participate in these discussions even with EU Parliament type discussions uh which which we've been able to arrange and uh and it was tough because after a certain amount of time like any Studio they'll say well we're already moving on to other titles we're we're not focus on that one any you know what I mean so so there is that that battle going on of you know you know how Studios or any production is prioritizing this role what they really want to get out of it so a lot of people say oh it's great that we can create extra awareness but a lot of impact producing is is really about how do we get beyond that how do we actually take this film and and make it something useful Beyond awareness around engagement movement right and then and the Apex is influencing policy and advocacy like that's the ultimate you know uh ambition I would say yeah and if you're um again you might come out of uni uh or you might do it as your final project you might decide to do a film about something you're really passionate about that you think needs to change um if you've made that super micro budget documentary say you've picked a subject you've made an important film to yourself what's your advice to reaching those audiences or what would you do with it I mean I think the best uh thing now is that there are so many more options to seek distribution right so uh so yeah so it doesn't really I don't ever want filmmakers to focus on oh well my film has a very low budget so you know maybe some of the big folks won't be interested that's not the case at all right you you never know who's G to be interested uh and it's really about how you can show that your story will resonate with people and what kinds of people and where those people are right so so whether it's streamers or C you know cinematic release or or a few think it can go an education route and you know and things like that right where they use it in you know universities for example all over the place um or it gets programmed into events there's a lot more Live Events now that want to program uh movies and and short form type stuff into their programming and those are places too that can also get you access to getting a bigger distribution deal for example the Hollywood climate Summit uh uh where I've been able to be an adviser previously on that's held in Los Angeles and it now has you know Netflix and Paramount uh and and other other folks at that level as sponsors and supporters there was a film called youth versus gov that showcased at that event and it didn't have any major distribution but because Netflix had and Netflix wasn't the ones who programmed it into the event right but because Netflix was involved with that event some of that saw it and they picked it up so there's a lot more for people to really explore uh and there are a lot more more streamers too available and one of the best thing whether you like the model or not of streaming one of the benefits to people who uh don't have access to you know a ton of resources and big money to make films is streamers are always at the mercy of needing high volume in order to function they need a lot of films which means they are constantly looking and they are procuring more projects than traditional Studio reps are which is good for filmmakers right because it it means that that if you've got something to bring to them and you you you find the right person you get to the right person there's a shot there's at least a better shot that they're going to take a more serious look at it versus you send it to some sales and there's no guarantee they're gonna look at it at all yeah yeah right because their volume is just much lower uh so so yeah I just um I I feel like it is an encouraging time because there I think there is less pressure on needing to hit a certain uh budget point in order to have options for distribution yeah um and Al so moving on to mental health so you're going to have to guide me through terminology here because this is not an expert subject for me um so you've got several you've said yourself you've got several mental health conditions I don't know if I'd even use the word conditions if that's the right way to describe them um that's fine that's fine so can you tell me about those things you have if you don't mind yeah so I have uh what's called complex PTSD which is a more long-term uh form of post atic stress syndrome and it it's brought on by uh um Regular PTSD is usually based around singular events uh that people experience in complex PTSD is more longterm because it's based on uh Trends right that have you know either gone on over years or there or multiple uh things that a person has experienced and then it starts to really uh yeah just impact your overall neurology um and there's there's similarities there to borderline personality disorder there's a lot of crossover and a lot of people can have both um there's also interesting debate you know within the the Psychotherapy you know Community right on on some of these diagnosis but uh but yeah I mean it makes it interesting in terms of our industry because uh you know the entertainment industry overall functions very much on packaging hopes and dreams to people which in turn is you know there's there's good in that right you know it keeps people uh you know motivated even when things aren't working out right but at the same time it's easy to exploit people with that right and uh so it has been hard you know having neurological conditions like this because it's really centered around uh experiencing trauma so it it's it's what you might call acquired neuro divergency uh because it's not necessarily something you born with it's something you acquired so uh yeah and I mean one of my primary abusers is in prison uh for many years for example right so but I think that all you know just influences the way we see the world and the things we bring to the table and it's also something that has given me a lot more compassion uh and and helped me as a a leader you know when you lead through empathy right versus uh uh you know being a micromanager or someone who leads through fear you know I don't believe leading with fear gets the best out of anyone uh maybe maybe once in a while it works but but uh so I I yeah I see it as an asset I don't see you know my something that makes our but uh and I like being transparent about it because you know any any Workforce doesn't matter what industry you work on uh can be very intolerant or or you're made to feel that it's an intolerant environment for people to be open about their vulnerabilities but the way people describe working on Films is we're all in the trenches together we're all going to get dirty and make this crazy project and and we're all gonna be exhausted at the end but it's gonna be great you know and that only works if you really believe that there's a bond forming between you and those folks that you're in those trenches with so that's why I like being transparent about saying like you know this is kind of how I function this is how my brain works you know maybe it's a little less linear than than other folks um but then it helps other people understand me and then I welcome them to share the same you know about themselves and then they feel like there's a safe space forming don't brick walls and pretend we're all just you know robots with no baggage or no you know flaws or cracks or whatever you want to call um so so talking about something like PTSD how do you manage that because obviously film is this kind of and the other add film is like a quite a chaotic stressful environment have you got sort of strategies you put in place to to help you deal with it yeah they don't always work uh but yeah I mean because I I also am someone who has ADD as well and I had that from the very beginning so you do have to you know become very conditioned about taking notes and and getting yourself to a place where you're you know you can complete test uh right it becomes easier to start things it's not like that's unique to having these conditions starting things is easier than than finishing things I think a lot of us know what that's what that's like um but you know when it comes to making movies you know as we've alluded to already when it becomes like a freight train there is a million things going on and they're happening quickly and there's this you know there's these tight deadlines that that for the most part are not going to change like everything has to be done you know by the certain time and so so if you're brain is getting easily overwhelmed right with uh uh taking on you know a huge list of things or there's lots of people running around say I need this I need that you know right uh because those are the film environments then then yeah I mean the onus does really become uh you know onto yourself to make sure you're giving yourself healthy Outlets to relax your brain to you know make sure you're taking diligent notes right where you can and I also take medication um you know that that it's a it's serotonin based medication and serotonin is what relaxes your brain so it keep keeps you from getting you know too much anxiety right and and and too flustered when when things get chaotic you know especially work so but but I think in the end too this is why we need Community my whole thing that I talk about a lot about people not being brick walls I think it's super important that's not just for people managing positions right it's true for everyone uh you know if people can't feel comfortable enough to be a little bit vulnerable you know and share some of these things in the workspace then we're never going to create environments at work where there's real trust yeah you know and and we have to be willing to admit like if someone feels like they're having the kind of day where they're like I'm just I'm not I'm not 100% today you know uh right like people need I think people need to be able to admit that if they're if they're somehow not having a day with they 100% not just so that everyone can pick up their slack but so that there's just open communication because otherwise people just start pretending that nothing's wrong and then you get into that position where if you did miss something you don't want to tell anyone because there's been no establishment of any of that trust right or or or it's okay to show any vulnerability that's when it gets hard and then that's when things get missed because there's no incentive to actually share if anything's if there's a problem yeah yeah and it I'd say it starts even especially in this country at school you get judged you get chested on absolutely everything and you get uh like our daughter school reports got 100% you got to be put 100% effort in all the time which is just not going to work is it you some days you do have a bad day and you're not 100% um and on a film set and in any business I think a lot of these barriers get put up by ego so people have certain positions that they think demands certain behaviors that can then make people feel terrible um so that would be my experience of it uh talking about set sort of onet keeping sets healthy uh keeping everyone safe so I noticed on your bio you talked about the I am Sarah Campaign which relates to a crew member that was killed on Set uh due to unsafe filming conditions um what would you say uh what what would you say the main takeaways from that and could you apply them do you think to sort of student films micr budget Productions oh absolutely yeah I mean for people who aren't familiar with that scenario uh there was a film ATA Georgia in the US uh where a camera assistant was hit by a train and killed and and then it was one of the biggest cases for a film set because the the you know main producer was found you know guilty of of homicide right I think that's possibly the first time that that's that's ever happened even though there have been incidences or you know dangerous things have happened and people have even died on sets before but to actually hold you know people on on Crews uh uh and producers accountable right seemed a very rare thing so I think this this definitely is relevant for people in film school all the way up because there's always been and the the recent situation with the Alec Baldin film right which is that's that's a case going on right now right and someone died is who holds the responsibility and so much of those conversations are oh it's everyone starts finger pointing oh well that was your job right so so for the um for the Sarah Jones situation right that happened all over the place people are finger pointing oh it was the first assistant director they're in charge of safety well the the director is really the the said thing you know they should be what about the actual safety person is there an actual safety person about the location person who should have known that they're you know what I mean and the answer is it's all of them yeah right every everyone in any kind of of leadership position uh has a responsibility and also to convene together and agree like have a consensus that there is an agreement that there is the safety measures and all that right have been taking place and and in these scenarios like none of that happened right which is also why you have the finger pointing there clearly was no team consensus and people making sure all the leads were being responsible but the other one that gets conflated is people can play multiple roles on a set and I think that's unique in this industry compared to a lot of others is you know you can have a director who's also an actor who also happens to be one of the owners of the production company right and so then you say oh well they're the director they're not really responsible for safety yeah but they're also one of the producers and producers are absolutely responsible for that it's their their movie and especially if they're an owner of the production company that's that's the Alec Baldwin situation actually happening right now right he was an actor in the film but he's also a producer that has ownership of the film so you can say on one hand oh the actor role of you doesn't have that responsibility but you have multiple roles and that's not an uncommon thing so people going through film school I think really need to understand have a really good understanding of what people's roles and responsibilities are and also understand that if you have multiple roles and the smaller the film The more people have multiple roles right you know you can't afford to have 100 people sta big films have so yeah so people have multiple hats and you need to make sure you have you know agreement of especially when it comes down to taking care of the well-being of of the people there that there's just like any company it might be a part-time thing because it's a singular project and that might be a few weeks or a few months but you have a full responsibility to everyone to make sure that you're taking all those measures and in some film schools though they even teach filmmakers to oh well you don't have money you don't have money for all that well do gorilla film making that's fine cheat and get the shop that's terrible like there are times where you can cheat and get the shot and there's not really a safety concern in doing that but if you just blanketly teach people that that's okay then they're not going to know anything else they're going to think oh if we can do it we should always look for ways to cut Corners that's filmmaking we should look ways to save money we should make ways to do it faster um but what ends up coming in last you know in that scenario it's health and well-being and safety yeah yeah right and a lot of the time you can it's the little the silly little things that can end up causing a big problem so even doing I know a lot of students I work with now they do like a risk assessment many risk assessment before they're even allowed to get the equipment out which is a really good way of just writing down things that could potentially go wrong so they can deal with them and know who's responsible on set for that particular issue um but I what you mean that gorilla style and it's easy to get carried away when you're doing that it's easy to think it' be fine it'll be fine you know especially if he was a very small crew um so talking of um sort of social impact uh films again talking about maybe a student who's who's found a subject they're really interested in and some of the stuff you've been involved with you've you've got a responsibility to the people you're making the film about so so could you talk about that a little bit about how you balance a a piece of sort of creative content with looking after the people who you're actually doing it about yeah no great question so especially in I mean this can happen in fiction and non-fiction right because you can have fiction stories that are still about real people and so so then the conversation there is well we might be taking liberties with the story and I think it's always better than not to at least get some consent here if it's not full consensus but get some consent from the people that you're doing the story about because there are lots of movies where you hear about the real people saying they didn't even there wasn't even a conversation I didn't even noce was happening and I don't even like how the movie turned out yeah you know and uh so I think in any in every case I think there is a responsibility to at least include people that you're you're doing the story about right uh in the process you know in some way um and I I think that's less about getting their blessing as it is a sign of respect and also how can you really do a story Justice authentically right if it's about real people and real situations uh if you're not including the people the real people so in documentaries that's a little bit less of a concern because you you have to include that that's you know you're not hiring actors for the most part you're you're dealing with the real people um and so I think there uh the concern is more about uh giving yourself ample time if if you do have good direct access to the people because sometimes access is I mean for documentaries access is your biggest asset right do you have access to the people and the places and the events that you need but when you have access to the people making sure that before you start filming with them that you've given yourself ample time to establish trust with them because that's the biggest thing that's going to pay off and that's how you're going to open them up to getting the real gritty you know uh uh stuff right and the things that they haven't sh possibly shared with anyone else that's what makes your movie Golden I mean not just from a commercial point of view which is great in a commercial point of view because for any people trying to figure out how to pitch a film what especially for a documentary what you need to be able to say is there's an exclusive element here either this story hasn't been shared or this person really hasn't been documented in this way before you know so these are exclusives they I've established trust these people and they're willing to share it with me with our team right and so that's the that's the power of documentary but that only can happen if you're serious about establishing trust because some people not everyone but some people can be very good at smoking you out if they feel like you're just there to kind of exploit their story and just make another project for yourself right and so that that definitely needs to be taken seriously and I don't think in film schools that's another area for example uh where they're where they're really taught people are really taught that element of what it takes to establish trust or what it takes or how far you can push a subject I've been you know I've worked on some documentaries where like we were trying to get a father to admit very honest thing about his kid as his kid was in a dire situation right he needed help from the people around him and the father wouldn't break at all just and what all we wanted was raw honesty it took five hours under a hot mic and a hot light right for him to finally break and some people on the crew thought it was bad that we were being abusive to him as a subject I was like no he needs to be broken down emotionally so so that he stops worrying about the camera being there and and US pushing him and he just starts giving us what he's really feeling the raw emotions of what he's really feeling and then then you you kind of get that Veil to go away in that wall to kind of crumble down a little bit that's what it's about yeah and and that just that takes you know practice and and real understanding to Fig out and the and also the audience watching if you don't get to that point it's is very unsatisfying for them because they don't get that people can sniff that out can't they if they're not getting the full story they're not getting the truth yeah there's no catharsis I hope you enjoyed this week's episode if you want more advice from industry professionals who are out there at the moment working or you just want to listen to some cool stories from film sets from around the world then please do[Music] subscribe