How to Make a Living as a DOP - Director of Photography with Andrew Rodger

This week I’m talking to cinematographer Andrew Rodger.

 Andy has worked on commercials, high profile TV dramas for Netflix and the
 BBC and feature films including No Way Up, Three Day Millionaire and
Confession. 

I chatted to Andy about how he got to where he is, how to get work and his
practical tips for being on set.
 Enjoy!

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Transcript

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[Music] hi Jim here and you're listening to the honest filmmaker podcast career advice from people in the business this week I spoke to dop Andrew Roger Andrew's worked on commercials high-profile TV dramas for Netflix and the BBC and feature films including no way up 3day millionaire and confession I spoke to Andrew about how he got into the industry what it's like being a dop on a massive production uh how to get work and tips for when things go wrong enjoy my first question is going to be around uh did you go to UNI did you study film how did you start out yeah so um I didn't go to film school um but I did go to university uh went to centry university did their CCM course the communication culture and media um which was a sort of Fairly General introduction to um bit of Sociology bit of communications um and then some media and then some sort of more practical photography videography y stuff um and from then I sort of worked out that because I I started out as a painter um and then moved into photography and and through my time at University I realized that actually videography moving image was really interesting to me as well so I kind of left University wanting to go into camera operating or being a DP right gotcha and when you made that move had you done much work with a video camera how did you sort of get your skill level up to start working yeah I mean that was one of the good things about the course was they had they had a lot of great kit um it's it's way better now I obviously things have moved on a lot but this was in the time of like D9 which was like a g JBC big tape thing um and the beginning of dbcam um so it was really literally just and it's probably the best advice I can give to someone who wants to get into that side of things is just doing it there's no better way of I mean you can study YouTube videos about framing till the cows come home but there's no better way than physically holding a camera getting used to her moves um and just doing it that's that's the best way yeah yeah no I totally agree with that um and what about what was the first job what was your first paid job uh working with a camera uh first paid job I did lots of music videos and stuff um as I was leaving uni um I I that's that's what here's a good answer there's a place called Frontline AV may still be there in centry um that was kind of a Community Arts based thing um so I do like documentary shooting stuff about you know new skate parks or basketball things or youth initiatives um in the area and I got sort of bits and pieces of work operating cameras um yeah shooting video for them um while I was in my last couple years at University that was a great introduction right and then so what was your first job as a dop all right um I mean yeah I guess I guess I was doping music videos and stuff at um university towards the end of that I did I did one for a bangod Seeker redeem who were a centry based sort of Hardcore band um that was kind of my first proper thing that got any traction um but from then I went into um I was a runner um and then I got to be a camera assistant for a year or two um and then that was so that was outside broadcast um doing Sky Sports football and rugby and stuff like that you can tell I'm a big football fan from my room covered in football star can't just just everywhere but um I enjoyed that and and I learned it taught me to operate because I I eventually got to operate on those some of those matches and I don't know if you know the the sports operators they'll have a big zoom lens and a a zoom and a focus and they're all pulling their own focus and zooming and framing all in real time um to something that's quite unpredictable so it was a really I I learned skills on that I learned sort of pulling focus and things that I might not necessarily have learned if I'd gone a more traditional route yeah yeah but to answer your question my first DP it sort it sort of happened like my first TV credit as a DP um be hard to say I I did a rock Awards thing in maybe 20110 12 and was was that the end game for you was that that's where I want to be I want to be a DP I think so I mean originally um I wanted to operate well originally I wanted to direct actually um but I was always been more interested in the kind of the mood of a piece more than you know the story or the acting it's obviously interesting and part of it but I I like to create help to create the world you know so I'll work with production design and to to make something that's visually interesting or tells a story um I I met a DP called Peter Edward WS when I was sort of running at Pinewood Studios um and didn't really know what the job of a DP was until I spoke to him and the way he explained it to me I thought well that's that's actually more what I want to do than direct I'm interested in this very specific part of it um so from then on yes that was the that was the the end goal that must have been 2003 2004 yeah and one of the things I always say to students and I know this is difficult when you're at uni but it does help knowing where you want to get to and it does help you sort of hone your skills and become good at a particular thing rather than just sort of knowing a bit about everything which is useful if you could sort of move and align yourself in a certain direction you'll become much more of an expert faster um yeah yeah it's pretty what um so so talking about somebody might come out uni they might do some micr budget stuff lowbudget films uh on those sets it's very very much can be very much dop director very close relationship you know that's how the hierarchy Works what's it like on a bigger production on like a TV project or a big feature film are you still having that close relationship with the director or are there more people involved in that chain yeah you have a close relationship with about 50 people ideally I not I'm not a big hierarchy person I have to say um I the people I try and work with and the atmosphere I try to Foster is more of a kind of a flat hierarchy thing where everyone has their own thing that they are bringing and working on and if it's all going well that you know they'll give you their best work from pulling Focus or loading or whatever it is they're doing um so I tend to hope I'm not answering your question at all but I I guess um yes uh the director is myself and a director are pulled in more directions on a bigger production there's more people to talk to um the actors might need more input certainly from a director so I'll on a bigger production I'll work more closely with them in pre-production so that when we're on set we might not have so so much time to talk to each other but at least we know what we're doing yeah um so we tend to be going along in tandem whereas on a smaller production yes there's much more hanging out and being together and and and pushing through what can be quite difficult without a budget yeah Amen to that um and what about been there done that what about um on these Bigger Productions what's what's your solo work that you do on your own when no when no one's around or you've got your script and you're looking at it what are the sort of first things you do when you're preparing to do a project yeah it depends how early I'm brought on um usually I'll so when I'm approached for a project It generally comes through my agent nowadays they say hey this is project um we put you out for this um and they come back indust do you want to see the script and if I am I'll read the script and I'll really the first time I read it is just to get a sense of the story and what it's about um and if I'm into it um and then the second time I'll start to think about I'll start to see how I how I would shoot it without any input from anyone else you know what immediately Springs to mind you know is it Moody what are the colors all that kind of stuff um and then I'll talk to a director and and get their you know idea about how how they see it um and from then I'll do a mood board um which is as much for me as it is for a director and it's like hey this is kind of where I'm going and even if it's completely the other way from what they're thinking um it starts a conversation they can be like yeah not that like this and then you can some directors you have to often you have to show them something for them to to react yes or no to it it's like a jumping off point I find um but yeah then beyond that I'm you know meeting crew if I can't get my regulars it's you know there's always new people um try and you know looking at lenses looking at all the sort of boring technical aspects that will come together to make something um sort of cogent um talking to starting relationships with the production designer um it sound like everyone I can getting like getting in front of them be like hello I'm here I'm here to help you know let's make this together that kind of thing so um it's bit like being first day at school but you have to be outgoing and friendly and sort of try and get people on side and you know start getting things together I guess yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah and um you talked about assembling your team um so say I'm leaving uni and I want to get work either as a trainee I want to do some camera operating on a feature film what what do I do how do I how do I get on your crew yeah um I mean a lot of people reach out uh get a lot of emails um and I usually try and reply if I can um the the way it kind of I found it because I I've been there as well is you're never bothering someone saying hi you know I'm here I want to help I want to learn um Can can I come on set and look can I be of use like um can of come and run whatever but if if you're if you find someone who's aable to that you can always like email them every couple months and say hi you know what's going on I'm available because when I'm cing up a production um there might be a hundred people that I I've met or work with and I I don't always you know you remember remember the people you've just worked with and You' be like I'll get them one again um but if someone emails me and says hey I I you know I want to be a trainee or I want to step up to to load or you know I'm starting to focus pull there might be something that's just coming that week a little commercial or something where I'm like brilliant just the person I need come along it's going to be a good atmosphere to learn um so yeah bother people is why that's fine we'll put your we'll put your email address put my phone number on the screen yeah like I mean yeah um the thing is everyone's busy what's nice at the moment is it's not particularly busy so um were able to do things like this and talk to each other and offer advice and but yeah I would just say reach out um and if you can get in any of the traine schemes um often the traines that we end up with have gone have come through that scheme yeah um so if you can get on one of those just find out you know but also like along de side that if you're able to if you have the time when you're not working to to you know pay your rent if you can shoot stuff or take photos or do something to make yourself to give yourself some experience as well that's that always comes in handy on set I know I wouldn't have got into the industry if I hadn't didn't have any idea of framing or what a camera was or you know a lot of that I learned but also there's there's so many resources nowadays your podcast YouTube where you can learn a bit and come on with some come on being useful straight away I guess and what I've learned is if you can be useful in a production you'll get asked back and you'll get asked back and you get us back yeah definitely definitely so one of the things I saw when I was doing my usual cyber stalking pre chatting to you oh great on your website it says let's see if I've got the exact quote here fast setup times which as a director gives me a warm feeling inside in my heart is that a lie are you fast and how do you advise someone to be fast it's all marketing you know um I I I like to think I'm fast I'm told I'm fast um I think that's that's come through and it's weird actually one of the things you hear talking to agents and and and producers is they often get scared of DPS who have done a lot of film work when they're booking for TV and I actually don't think that's fair I think if you're shooting a feature film without any budget there's there's no time to do anything you know you're there the actors are limited for time your locations are limited for time you have to be fast um so yeah I think because of my background in in that kind of stuff and also live TV um you have to get it there's you know there's no more time to to have an extra half hour of lighting so the way I way I've learned to light is fast um and is adaptable um and is is simple I I think um and it means we can get more done the the the thing for me is is to is is not to be an obstacle it's it's to to be the opposite it's to try and help so if I can get the actors and the director ready to go on set and everything's lit and I know what the next shot is they get more time they get better performances everyone's happier they have a better day so that's yeah that's that's integral for how I work and know you uh the other thing you get a lot of is light Tweakers is what I would call them somebody who's got a pair of gloves on they got the belt and you do a take and you're happy with a take the t's really good the lighting looks amazing and then you go cut and then someone walks in with a pair of gloves and moves like the doors the barn doors of a light like a half an inch it doesn't make a blind bit of difference but I think that comes out of the fear that you should be doing something when really you should just sort of it's working leave it alone um yeah being impatient but I do understand that that impulse um but yeah I mean the problem is if you start changing stuff after take one like like if it's to if something's fallen over or it's just not working like you have to be able to step in and change it but if you do start changing things you then can't use that take because the light's different yeah if it's different enough for you to do something it's different enough to change it so so really yeah you have to be and and that's I guess that's why I say relationships are important you know you have to almost be friends with the ad because if they're honest with you and you're honest with them then they're not going to rush you when there's more time yeah and you're not going to can I can I can I swear yeah you can swear you can say fantastic they're not going to you're not going to them and like say oh I do it really quick and then it's G to take ages so if if you can get that trust working um I've forgotten the question it was whether you were a light tweaker you twe behind doors but you're not clearly I I like to think I'm not and luckily like nowadays I mean yeah sure in the past doing smaller stuff you're doing everything you're setting the lamps up you're going but hopefully you just have to get to a point because you you you can light something day like if you want to I've done commercials and had a whole day to light like a pack of toothpaste and it's fantastic and you really can tweak but it's not really necessarily any better um so you just have to get to a point you're like yep good enough for telly and then you go but like and and hopefully you've done enough things in the film that that nothing embarrasses you when it's on the screen you you know you have to be happy with it you have to fight for your time but you can't be the A divver and um make it all about yourself because it's it's not no um and what about so uh say I want to be say I want to be a director I'm a director say I want to be a director coming out of uni and I'm working with new dops people who are new to in green what advice would you give those directors what would have made your life easier back when you were starting what in that relationship um communication I do you know what I I I think the biggest thing when I'm meeting a director especially nowadays is do I get on with them like are they a similar energy level to me um or or do we complement each other with our different energy levels and by energy levels I just mean like are they outgoing or are they quiet or um do you think you could sit and chill out with them because you're going to spend a lot of time with this person there's going to be stressful situations and if you feel like they're going to fall apart Under Pressure that's fine but then you have to be the sort of person that can and scoop them up and get them going again um so I I would I would say the biggest thing when yeah U the biggest advice is just is like pick people that you feel you can work with even if they're not the most experienced people even if they you know the show all isn't quite there yet if if they're passionate and and you think you can work with them that's almost more important because after your project they show will will be better because they've just shot something for you and got on um I feel like that's hope for the useful yeah yeah yeah no that's good advice that is good advice um what about what's your advice when things go wrong or they're not working yeah um remain calm on the outside at least because um especially the biger Bigger Productions lots of people are looking at you and looking at the director now if the directors going crazy and they've got their own things going on that's fine but the crew will look to you these very experienced Gaffers that have been doing it for 50 years you know everyone that they need to know that there's a steady hand on the tiller so you're still going to get home on time you're going to see your family we're going to get R Done um so it's it's just it's even if you need a second to to just think about something you know even if PE people are coming at you you just need to just go okay right cool what's what's the strong Choice what's what's going to get us through this and that that only really comes from I guess experience I still get nervous on a big there there'll be some explosion or something that's going to happen we've got one take of it it's very stressful but if you're nervous and jisy that mood will Ripple out it's true of anyone on the set really there's one person that's really just it'll it'll Ripple out so I think if if you can be calm and confident in what you're doing and listen to people then it'll be fine usually yeah usually um no that's good advice I'm trying to think how I approach moments like that I think that advice is good sometimes to just take a moment away from that either that away from that situation or just away from other people just to kind of get your your headgears rolling again because like you say there a lot of people a lot of input lot of things happening um and a lot a lot of people have their own thing going on they might need to get home they might have child care issues might that might be why they're stressed so if you can help with that if you can if you can work out you know why they're they're feeling that way um then great and hopefully You' said you've done all you can as a member of the crew to to make it calm or to make those problems not an issue because you're not going over each night you know you have a lot of power as a as a DP to control when people are going home um so if you can get everything done and it looks good and and you're like yeah I can light this quickly or I can if I do this I know we don't need that shot there or we can get this and that you you're people will start to see that and calm down because everything's going well we've all been on Productions where it's a nightmare um sometimes you can't do much but um yeah be calm stay calm stay calm what's The Hitchhikers Guide thing um stay calm like yeah if if you can yeah yeah it's a good advice um and the other thing that uh students new people to the industry always face is this kind of image of a closed industry where people only employ people they know or people they've worked with so that can be a little disheartening when you're coming out of uni what advice have you got apart from connecting with people and is is that your real experience of it is it a closed industry can be um hard to defend that yeah I think it is um but I will say I didn't know anyone at all in the industry I knew nobody um and just chatting to someone um so story I haven't told before so I come out University obviously I'd been shooting small things but I didn't know anyone in film I wanted to get into film so anyone I met the street who was like tangentially involved or like when I worked in the shop and people came in and they were like oh I'm a colorist be like oh cool what's that um so my stepmom on a holiday met someone who was in props and bless her heart um she managed to get me their number so I spoke to them badgered them like I'm saying to do um they got me on set their their um brother law was Peter Edwards um from from there on I worked out like this is what I want to do and from watching him work so it's difficult um but once you're in and you're of use like that's all you can be when you started out you know you you'll have great ideas you you've got valuable things to say but um really you're there to learn when you start out so but if you can be of use and if you can watch and learn how things like there's a lot of things to learn on a set eut and stuff it's it's a very strange World um you gradually learn it if you can be cool on set and of use you'll get asked back you'll make friends and that's how you get into it um and there are more formal schemes and ways in but that's how I did it but yes it's very difficult um there's also not a lot of jobs in the industry um especially at the moment so it's quite it's quite a close shop and people aren't necessarily uh Keen to invite people in because they want to keep the jobs and that's understandable but but yeah um it's durable it's durable and and what I did was I I haven't come from a lot of money I had to work um and then my time off and weekends and things I'd go to set and and get basically work for free which I'm not condoning but that's kind of what I had to do um so there's ways in but yes it's hard but don't be disheartened if you really want to do it um you you'll get there you'll do it and it's worth it isn't it when you do get there and you're work working on these budget Productions most of the time he says yeah look I mean it's stressful it's a stressful job but um the days when it's good there's nothing else I would want to do yeah um he says in a room full of guitars but like honestly I I love I love that job it's um I I couldn't do anything else now but um I do love it do love it and then so talking about your uh recent projects so the one I've got is no way up which has got underwater Photography in it so is that the first time you've done that what the hell was that like I've I've been around it I've been on sets with it I hadn't been a DP for it before that was new um it was good the the nice thing about working in film and TV especially at that end is you get if you can't if you haven't personally done something there'll be an expert that's there that has like we we had a the water safety team and divers that have dealt with all this before um I had a fantastic gaffer um called Bernie Apprentice who um does like all the the bond stuff and any submarine films you see like he's done all that so having someone that understood the safety of lighting underwater and his you know his team were fantastic and with all the all that cabling and stuff um so it was good but I I loved it um there's there's shots of me there's a BSC article out I'll send you the link but it's got shots of me with like a regulator and and a big camera and a big bubble just having a great time in this plane that was sinking um it was great that's one of nice about the job is you do end up you end up on set more than most people you end up on sets more than you do with direct director would like I might do two or three films a year director's going to do one really um and and a lot of their time is in pre-production whereas I'll have a shorter pre-production and then a l of time on set um so yeah um I loved it I would love to do more of it um I like variety and what I do and that was certainly different yeah yeah I bet it was um and you mentioned uh your agent so at what point did you get your agent and I was going to ask you what percentage of work comes VI your agent but it sounds like quite a lot now um so so that might be true of of people at some I don't feel like I'm like at a huge high level yet I'm you know I'm earning a living and it's great I'm doing interesting projects hopefully things like no way up will get me into bigger things um so most of the work comes through people I've met and directors I've worked with before um no way up did come through my agent um but yes most of the work I get um but but there are bits and pieces like that that I just wouldn't get in the room for um you know producers will go or L producers will go to a an agent and say who are you DPS and they'll send out who they think were good for the job um so it's useful having an agent for those gigs um but yeah I still get most of mine work yeah yeah okay that's interesting and um logistics for somebody wanting this job how's the money work do you get a big check at the end of it all do you get weekly wages do you get you know have you got a pension with it how how's old cash work no I mean I'm a freelance I don't I don't I I mean I had a pension when I was so I had a couple staff jobs um around you know after after I was an assistant um so I've like edited for corporates and stuff like that yeah um and I had I had pensions then but now I don't have a pension um so yeah you don't really have that safety net um I mean there's been discussions about that kind of thing for Freelancers and I fully back all that if there could be some way to you know have a have a pension but um so no so I get money when I work and when I don't I don't get any money yeah or when there's no work like there hasn't been so my last job was in uh I had a couple commercials in December but my big work finished in November yeah I haven't really worked since then and um are you on a say you're on a big uh TV show or a Film Production are you on a payroll or do you get paid yeah you get paid like regularly on that payroll yeah so some Indies is different you might get a lump up front and then some at the end but generally the nice thing about TV drama um and and the films I've been doing certainly in the UK you get we paid weekly oh okay which is great so just a Friday there's your payroll bump and and for me it goes to my agent um they collect it and if it's late they deal with it which is invaluable every agency is different some of them it's five days some of it's three some of them they'll pay it immediately basically they hold the money and then they give it to me and that goes into my business yeah that makes sense I guess that's because I chatted to a freelancer a while back but the misunder understanding people sometimes have with that or the thing that they don't appreciate is sometimes it takes a while to get paid if you're working on uh you know if you're a freelancer you're being hired in on a corporate job it might take a bit longer and like you say this chat your agent has with them about pay you're sort of left to do that yourself and that can be quite difficult when you're chasing somebody up for money I've been there yeah yeah it's it's hard and and it's good to get that dealt with up front and if you can get the time down you know some of these commercials and some of these corporates they're like 90 days until you get paid and like that's fine for a company but if you got aay your rent that doesn't help you um so yeah one of the things I've learned is is uh not to rush out and buy a load of cars um even though I might want to so um yeah it's it's I'm not still not good at it now but it's it's if you're getting pockets of money through the year and then you know you're not going to work November to February say um it's having done enough work and saved enough to get you through that time so that you're not panicking about paying bills and then that took me a while to learn learn and you can only do that if you work um but I I'm quite lucky I I work you know I'll do a film and a TV show every year and then I lo to commercials um so yeah generally it's okay I mean last year in the industry you I'm sure you've had the same thing was it was quite rough it was quite um quiet um but but for me my agent was able to get me in the rooms to do you know I did a kids show that I would never normally have done but it was a great experience um and quite technical in the end so um yeah but it's rough especially doing corporates I I I don't miss that that was yeah getting paids really hard and it shouldn't be because you know you show up on time you do the work you should get paid on time but yes yes agreed um so talking talking about spending money at the very beginning of that journey I again I'm this student wants to be a cameraman should I go out and buy a camera did you did you go out and buy a equipment what did you do um there's a there's a really good DP called Matthew liberti I don't know if you know his work he's like he did Iron Man and the whale and loads of stuff like fantastic successful DP um and he was like he's always said don't buy a camera it's it's a scam um I got a loan and bought a red one uh when it was a couple years old and it was the guy was replacing it with an epic so that'll date it it was a few years in red 1 MX um and that was a big investment but it did pay off um if you are doing corporate stuff like that it's helped full it meant that my images were immediately better because I had a better tool to work with it's not everything but i' moved from a DSLR to that suddenly BOS um if you can afford it it's great because you got a camera then you can shoot with every day and you'll get better and you'll learn lighting practically um but don't go and put yourself in a load of debt um and there's lots of stuff now where you can hire cameras and and try them out and it's just you know it's cheap than it used to be so I don't want to say there's so many different ways in you know you could go you could go through a formal route and be an assistant and get on set that way and get around the kit that way or work in a kit room like I did for a bit get your hands on things that way um if you can yeah but it's not essential um but I I I learned by doing so if you can get your hands on cameras some way then by all means yeah I hope you enjoyed this week's episode if you want more advice from industry professionals who are out there at the moment working or you just want to listen to some cool stories from film sets from around the world then please do[Music] subscribe